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07 Aug, 2007

Experts investigate 360's heat problems

360 News | Microsoft disagrees with findings.
Much to Microsoft's displeasure, 360 failure rates seem to be a very hot topic at the moment, especially with Microsoft having scorched a hole in their pocket by extending the 360 warranty. A recent quite detailed investigative report from Nikkei Electronics has only increased the heat on Microsoft, not only suggesting that the thermal design of the console may be inappropriate, but providing the actual numbers to back that statement up.

Nikkei Electronics employed the services of a thermal design expert to test two consoles, one purchased in 2005 and one repaired in 2007. The monitored temperature gap between emitted air and room temperature was 22°C, a level believed quite high by the expert. Apparently, a 10°C gap is more typical in consumer production devices.

On opening the 360, the expert also noted that the heatsink on the graphics LSI was smaller than typically expected. Testing showed that it would easily heat up to 80°C, and highly likely exceed 100°C in typical summer conditions of 35°C. Interestingly, the 360 repaired in 2007 had exactly the same heatsink.

Might Microsoft be sweating in the face of this news? Apparently not - speaking to Computer and Videogames, Microsoft has disagreed with the findings of the report, stating, "There is no single root cause or systemic issue with any of the Xbox 360 consoles."

Microsoft also added that, "With such a complex consumer electronic product that contains more than 1700 different components and 500 million transistors, there are obviously many things that can malfunction at any given time."

And finally, it wouldn't be Microsoft statement about Xbox 360 reliability problems without the now boilerplate response, "The vast majority of customers who own Xbox 360 consoles continue to have a terrific experience."

While PALGN appreciates the complexity of the issue, Microsoft increasingly appears to be painting themselves into a corner. On one hand, the problems are apparently not due to a single systemic fault, something everyone can appreciate Microsoft wanting to avoid admitting. However, the alternative point of view on Microsoft's statements is that the system has been designed with so many different flaws, there are many points of failure that are causing a total system failure in the field. It's important to note that people are experiencing catastrophic systems failures, not simple occasional glitches.

Between a single systemic issue and a raft of system-destroying issues, most manufacturers would prefer to deal with the single issue, as it represents a simple, manageable fix. To admit to the second is to admit to extremely poor design and quality control issues, issues that are almost impossible to fix without a total redesign from scratch. Under this context, Microsoft's statements are extremely curious, as they do little to encourage faith in the system or provide existing users with hope that their 360 will live beyond the warranty period.

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61 Comments
4 years ago
Find me a link to any article about capcom being restricted by the 360 in developing dead rising.

Please.

I can't vouch for every console ugh, i know the gow scratching up is a common problem, google it if you may, pages and pages will come up.Any other discs becoming scratched are either isolated cases(just like a random disc becoming scratched in any random disc player) or perhaps the owner of the discs may need to be a bit more careful icon_wink.gif?

Either way, if that's the only part of my rant you quoted me on, i guess the rest you can't argue with.Sounds good to me.
4 years ago
The only thing that surprises me is the fact Microsoft didn't prevent this. Surely these problems were present in the testing stages?

Judging the fact that Microsoft released their console early and they would of known these faults, I truly know that Microsoft are threatened and scared of Sony.

Though Nintendo sure undercut both companies icon_lol.gif
4 years ago
Jibbs wrote
Find me a link to any article about capcom being restricted by the 360 in developing dead rising.
I don't have to find you a link for that sort of stuff Jibbs! You know it's a fact that developers can get way more out of a game if they had more powerful hardware.....this applies to almost every game from every generation. Banjo Kazooie was made with much higher resolution textures and way more polygons, but all of this had to be reduced and optimised for the N64. It's basically how it works with all games.....like getting frame rates etc right is usually because the content is pushing the hardware or because it hasn't been optimised.....but with limitless power....then no reason for optimisation....the hardware will handle it (to an extent....as long as there are no major bugs/glitches in the programming).

So like I said....i don't need to prove Dead Rising could've been more of a game.....but the statement you made about Dead Rising being the best it can be can only be made if you were involved in development and can safely say that every single idea you guys (the devs) had for Dead Rising was actually implmented in the retail product.

And again....i'm not saying the Ps3 would've done a better job, but maybe with a HDD and a Blu-Ray format the devs might've had more potential/leeway to work with? Again....not a definate but you can't rule it out....like you've done.

Jibbs wrote
I can't vouch for every console ugh, i know the gow scratching up is a common problem, google it if you may, pages and pages will come up.
Well it's actually to do with 'streaming'. The more a disc has to be accessed by a console obviously the more risk it has of being scratched etc. Because GOW is actually very demanding on hardware and because of the Dvd9 format a lot of Gears content had to be compressed quite a lot and this leads to 'streaming'....data being read off the disc constantly. You'll see this sort of thing with games like San Andreas aswell. So it's got nothing to do with the game, or the disc it's on....but the hardware reading it. If the disc drive can read it properly....well the disc will keep spinning and being read....no problems.

So in summary...it seems to be a common case with Gears because Gears is almost always spinning in a disc drive which is unfortunately prone to hiccups.

Hehe....also for the record I was actually going to quote your whole post and almost every point you made (along with Nikack's last post) but I just deleted it....I dunno why...
4 years ago
nikack wrote
At least Microsoft is dealing with the problem favourably, if this happened to the PS3 you know you'd just have to suck it up and fork out another $1000 to replace your console.
Whateva dude; that's such a cop out its not funny. We are supposed to praise MS for their favourable response to a machine which they **** up in the first place?

whatever.

admeister wrote
Of course those things didn't stop you from buying the game, the PS3 wasn't even released at the time for a start! Now, imagine if the PS3 and the 360 were both out at that time, and the game was on both consoles. Much harder choice eh?
:blank stare:

are you seroius? Every god-damn multiplatform game this gen so far has been shown to be better on the 360.

I can't handle....this....much...longer...

Jibbs wrote
Find me a link to any article about capcom being restricted by the 360 in developing dead rising.
Yer, I agree with Jibbsy boy. No one can sit in their chair and say which exclusive version would have turned out better.

Bluray and the Cell are all great pieces of electronics, but the 360 isn't exactly chopped liver. Who knows, maybe Capcom can make the game better on 360 since its much easier to code for. :shrugs:. Pretty silly thing to be arguing.
4 years ago
Jibbs wrote
In fact, judging by all the other cross platform launches for the 360 and the ps3, the graphics would have been worse, as pretty much every game launched on both has ended up looking better on the 360, even with the ps3's quote-'awesome hardware'.

So taking into account that if they both launced at the same time, and the 360 version would be between 10-20 dollars cheaper then the ps3 version(just like current cross platform releases, see transformers at dvdcrave for a great example) and that it would look better on the 360, i know what i would choose.
OK Jibbs, I wasn't going to bother with your post, but you're asking for it. OK, give me some proof that PS3 ports look worse than the games on the 360 then? I haven't seen anything of the kind myself, so don't just make that statement out of thin air. Plus the PS3 supports HDMI with full 1080p output, which means that visually it is the more advanced of the two. As for the price thing, two words: Shop Around. You can easily find PS3 games for the same price as 360 games (or lower, as I've found). If you're serious about these things, they won't be an issue, and on a slightly unrelated note, DVDCrave's prices suck imo. You'll get ripped off if you pay RRP.
4 years ago
I have seen so many reviews of multi-platform games that state they look and play better on the 360. The majority of them have graphical and frame-rate issues.

You can stick up for your PS3 all you want, but when you start talking out of your ass with no facts to back it up...well.

IGN on Rainbow 6: Some texture work isn't quite as sharp, and the characters aren't as detailed as what's found in the 360 release, especially in the faces. Weapons that have been dropped pop in and out of view as you approach and walk away when they're but a mere 50 feet or so away.

On Transformers: (but at least the 360 version has less shimmer and better lighting than the PS3 version)

On Tony Hawk's Project 8: The second problem with the PS3 variant of Project 8 is that it simply doesn't run all that well. The game chops up left and right, sometimes to the point where the controls don't feel responsive. It's bad enough that the camera isn't always perfect, but when it's staring at the bottom of your board and the game is running at 15fps, well, there's a major problem. That's not to say that it always runs poorly, as it can be reasonably quick most of the time, but Project 8 chops up way more often than is normally forgivable.

Want more? I can find way more!! And thats only reading through a few quick reviews at one site!

Edit2: More!

On Splinter Cell Double Agent: Graphically, the game looks good, but falls short of the detailed display Sam saw on Xbox 360 last year. Players who ran through the paces in Microsoft-land will notice a slower framerate and the loss of a few small details (things like a smaller quantity of fights during the prison riot, different textures on character close-ups and no goggle-toggle when tossing on Sam's specs). There are other areas where Sam and company suffer from a bout of PS3 hiccups too. In some instances, for example, snow falls everywhere but the top left-hand corner of the screen; Sam's hands occasionally clip into walls while he hacks at a wire; and the camera will sometime flip out as our hero climbs across a pipe.

On FEAR: Simply put, the PS3 doesn't hold a candle to the visuals found in the Xbox 360 version -- especially considering the handful of bugs that have dead soldiers getting stuck in walls and twitching on the floor. The detailed environments and clear draw distances aren't found on PS3. If you had never seen the other versions of F.E.A.R., you still wouldn't be impressed with the PS3's graphics, but compared to the PC and 360, this version is graphically dead in the water.
4 years ago
Block your ears and close your eyes all you want admeister, so far every multi-plat game has played better on the 360 (plus rumble, plus achievements).

Regardless of 'teh HDMI!!1!".

Seriously, sometimes I feel like buying a 360 and NOT a PS3 just to spite you. Don't you have a Wii to talk about to make everyone sick of?
4 years ago
Jim Dash wrote
I have seen so many reviews of multi-platform games that state they look and play better on the 360. The majority of them have graphical and frame-rate issues.

You can stick up for your PS3 all you want, but when you start talking out of your ass with no facts to back it up...well.
Well, I haven't seen any evidence of that for myself, so make of that what you will. That's why I asked for proof, since I haven't seen this trend.

Oh, and even PALGN mentioned that the PS3 can add stuff to a multiplatform game:

The Darkness review wrote
Also, you’ll find TV’s dotted around the city, each packed with multiple stations to watch, and in the case of the PS3 version, hours and hours of films, cartoons and music to enjoy.
It's not huge, but it's something that you can't enjoy on the 360, so the PS3 version could be called superior in that sense. The problem I notice is that most of the time only one version of the game is reviewed, so once again, I don't see any proof that the PS3 versions are supposed to be so much worse.
4 years ago
I think people are confusing 'multiplatform' with 'port'. One of the only multiplatform games I know of is The Darkness and to my knowledge those games are almost identical except for the extra Ps3 content. I actually bought the 360 version (cuz like games that had previously been ported I had a feeling it might look better on ther 360, but after doing some research I couldn't find anywhere that confirmed it....infact almost every review said Ps3 and 360 version were identical). Games like Fight Night, GRAW etc are just ports on the Ps3.

Infact if you can prove the 360 version of The Darkness is better please do so cuz it'll just justify my purchase even more.

Oblivion was ported but that had a lot of care taken so it ended up being better ont he Ps3. So even though recently the ports on Ps3 haven't been able to stand up to their original counterparts doesn't mean that's all the hardware is capable of.
4 years ago
^ Read up stupid.

There's no doubting the PS3 has the potential for multi-platforms games to be better than their 360 counterparts. Its just that not many have been thus far.

Have a read Admeister. It just proves how fanboy-ish you really are. You stand up for your console of choice, but got no idea about it.
4 years ago
Sorry to say it admeister but the guys are right. Go to Gamspot and they have 2 different articles....one is on games that were released on 360 ages ago and are now being ported to the Ps3 and the other one is of multiplatform games being released now and both articles favour the 360. Infact there are screens with side by side comparisons....so you don't have to take anyone's word for it....you can see for yourself.

This does not include The Darkness, Monster Madness or some of the newer/bigger name multiplatform games so it's not the final word....but it proves the point pretty clearly.

The Darkness seems to be the only exception to this so far.
4 years ago
My god can people stop attacking all the various consoles! The fact is that regardless of whether or not you hate the various aspects of each console, you have to live with them. You hate the fact that the 360 has a huge failure rate? Don't buy one. You hate the fact that the PS3 is so expensive? Don't buy one. You hate the fact that the Wii is graphically inferior? Don't buy one. These problems are here and unless any of you guys actually work for Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo there is nothing you can do about them. Sure I would love it if I didn't have to worry about my 360 screwing up and I wish that the PS3 was cheaper so that I could buy one, but this is how it is and I'm sorry to say that we all have to deal with it. Sure Microsoft released their console a year early and whilst it might be considered "underhanded" and "non-ethical" to some people, the fact is that Microsoft did it, they are having problems with the consoles and now they have to live with it. Complaining about it on a forum is NOT going fix the console and it's most likely not going to make any difference at all to the companies.

Spancs edit: locked. This hasn't been on topic for pages and pages now. We have a console debate thread, you all know that yet you bitch and whinge like a bunch of children here.
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