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07 Aug, 2007

Experts investigate 360's heat problems

360 News | Microsoft disagrees with findings.
Much to Microsoft's displeasure, 360 failure rates seem to be a very hot topic at the moment, especially with Microsoft having scorched a hole in their pocket by extending the 360 warranty. A recent quite detailed investigative report from Nikkei Electronics has only increased the heat on Microsoft, not only suggesting that the thermal design of the console may be inappropriate, but providing the actual numbers to back that statement up.

Nikkei Electronics employed the services of a thermal design expert to test two consoles, one purchased in 2005 and one repaired in 2007. The monitored temperature gap between emitted air and room temperature was 22°C, a level believed quite high by the expert. Apparently, a 10°C gap is more typical in consumer production devices.

On opening the 360, the expert also noted that the heatsink on the graphics LSI was smaller than typically expected. Testing showed that it would easily heat up to 80°C, and highly likely exceed 100°C in typical summer conditions of 35°C. Interestingly, the 360 repaired in 2007 had exactly the same heatsink.

Might Microsoft be sweating in the face of this news? Apparently not - speaking to Computer and Videogames, Microsoft has disagreed with the findings of the report, stating, "There is no single root cause or systemic issue with any of the Xbox 360 consoles."

Microsoft also added that, "With such a complex consumer electronic product that contains more than 1700 different components and 500 million transistors, there are obviously many things that can malfunction at any given time."

And finally, it wouldn't be Microsoft statement about Xbox 360 reliability problems without the now boilerplate response, "The vast majority of customers who own Xbox 360 consoles continue to have a terrific experience."

While PALGN appreciates the complexity of the issue, Microsoft increasingly appears to be painting themselves into a corner. On one hand, the problems are apparently not due to a single systemic fault, something everyone can appreciate Microsoft wanting to avoid admitting. However, the alternative point of view on Microsoft's statements is that the system has been designed with so many different flaws, there are many points of failure that are causing a total system failure in the field. It's important to note that people are experiencing catastrophic systems failures, not simple occasional glitches.

Between a single systemic issue and a raft of system-destroying issues, most manufacturers would prefer to deal with the single issue, as it represents a simple, manageable fix. To admit to the second is to admit to extremely poor design and quality control issues, issues that are almost impossible to fix without a total redesign from scratch. Under this context, Microsoft's statements are extremely curious, as they do little to encourage faith in the system or provide existing users with hope that their 360 will live beyond the warranty period.

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61 Comments
4 years ago
If only they'd designed this thing to look like an "exhale" icon_wink.gif
4 years ago
Quote
"The vast majority of customers who own Xbox 360 consoles continue to have a terrific experience."
While they're working. Once they break, not so much fun.
4 years ago
I reckon this article sums up my feelings on this whole situation. Obviously Microsoft are denying the problems but it's clear to most people that they exist. I knew there were problems with it after about a week of use because the thing was noisy as all hell....and it's like when your car starts making weird noises....you can push it and get it fixed etc but it'll never go back to working like before.

Personally I don't have any confindence in pumping anymore money into the system so i'm gonna pick up the must-haves exclusives and that's about it. I'm not buying anymore hardware for it that's for sure.
4 years ago
My console got the three rings of death for the fourth time this weekend. Luckily when I re-booted it worked fine, I didnt want to have to send it away for repairs for the 4th time.


At least Microsoft have admited that there are problems and there is a 3 year limited warranty for hardware failures, so I dont see much of a problem these days.
4 years ago
Quote
At least Microsoft have admited that there are problems and there is a 3 year limited warranty for hardware failures, so I dont see much of a problem these days.
The problem is that when you buy something, it should work how it is intended to work in a normal use situation. You shouldn't have to worry about it packing it in and you having to send it away for repairs, or for a replacement. Obviously the 3 year warranty extension is going to cost them far less than potential law suits from throughout the world. Imagine if everything that you bought was made by microsoft (shudder).

Having said that, I have had the same 360 since April last year and i have not encountered any problems yet, except for a disc drive that sounds like cookie monster on a particularly heavy biscuit binge, which doesn't seem to affect the discs yet.
4 years ago
ugh the boot wrote
I reckon this article sums up my feelings on this whole situation. Obviously Microsoft are denying the problems but it's clear to most people that they exist. I knew there were problems with it after about a week of use because the thing was noisy as all hell....and it's like when your car starts making weird noises....you can push it and get it fixed etc but it'll never go back to working like before.

Personally I don't have any confindence in pumping anymore money into the system so i'm gonna pick up the must-haves exclusives and that's about it. I'm not buying anymore hardware for it that's for sure.
Well they are addressing it. The only issue for me was the 1 year warrenty. Having 3 pretty much lets me not care about this issue at all. God help us if our Wii or PS3 dies. I dare say the warrenty return would be painful and take a long time.

Why deny yourself gaming goodness on the 360 which is easily the choice console for this year? The 3 year warrenty pretty much covers your ass so who cares? If it dies you new a new unit in a weeks turn around for free, forcing you to turn on your Wii or PS3.

M$ have great stuff, I love all their hardware design (bar the dying of the console bit icon_smile.gif). I can't wait to get the messenging add-on for example. At least they have supported hardware. Where the hell is the PS3 Sony certified standard voice headset? I don't care if bluetooth is the standard, I want somethign they I can be 100% confidient I will not have any problems with.

More of an issue for me is the PS3 and it's broken interface/friends/lack-of-achievements. Why would anybody pick up a PS3 title over a 360 is a better question (looks to madden for one with 60 fps verus 30).
4 years ago
Man, i've been so impressed with my 360 that if it were to cark it, outside of warranty, i'd just buy a new one.I doubt i'd even be peeved as it's THAT good and will be cheap as second time round.

Hey it's not perfect, and i'd be more critical of it's cons if it didn't have so many pro's.
4 years ago
Yeah 360 is the best console I have owned so far, gotten many enjoyable gaming hours out of it.

Luckily I have had NO problems with it (had it since launch) but if i did id gladly fork out for another. Sad I know, but its very fun.

But I agree, they need to fix their sht up!

Hope to get a PS3 sometime next year too, hopefully that is as good as an experience.
4 years ago
LeonJ wrote
Well they are addressing it. The only issue for me was the 1 year warrenty. Having 3 pretty much lets me not care about this issue at all. God help us if our Wii or PS3 dies. I dare say the warrenty return would be painful and take a long time.
The difference here being that the other two are actually reliable. It's good that Microsoft have a decent warranty return going, but they shouldn't have to use it like this.

LeonJ wrote
M$ have great stuff, I love all their hardware design (bar the dying of the console bit icon_smile.gif).
Kind of puts a large hole in the boat though, doesn't it? You can have the best stuff in the world but if your hardware is crap then it loses a lot of value.

LeonJ wrote
I want somethign they I can be 100% confidient I will not have any problems with.
I'm amazed that you have an Xbox 360 then.
4 years ago
Jibbs wrote
Hey it's not perfect, and i'd be more critical of it's cons if it didn't have so many pro's.
Exactly right. If it didn't provide me with some of the best gaming experiences of my life, then I'd probably be much, much more critical of the little box of heat/fun.

But those experiences have been priceless. Thus far the PS3 hasn't even provided me with a quarter of that experience. The 3 year warranty put all of my wowrries to rest. I know if it breaks, I can send it away today and have it back by this tme next week. They're running it at a loss, not us.
4 years ago
LeonJ wrote
Well they are addressing it. The only issue for me was the 1 year warrenty. Having 3 pretty much lets me not care about this issue at all. God help us if our Wii or PS3 dies. I dare say the warrenty return would be painful and take a long time.

Why deny yourself gaming goodness on the 360 which is easily the choice console for this year? The 3 year warrenty pretty much covers your ass so who cares? If it dies you new a new unit in a weeks turn around for free, forcing you to turn on your Wii or PS3.

M$ have great stuff, I love all their hardware design (bar the dying of the console bit icon_smile.gif). I can't wait to get the messenging add-on for example. At least they have supported hardware. Where the hell is the PS3 Sony certified standard voice headset? I don't care if bluetooth is the standard, I want somethign they I can be 100% confidient I will not have any problems with.

More of an issue for me is the PS3 and it's broken interface/friends/lack-of-achievements. Why would anybody pick up a PS3 title over a 360 is a better question (looks to madden for one with 60 fps verus 30).
You better hope you next problem is the 3-red rings because if it's not....you're not covered for sh!t! That's the problem I have with this extended 3-year warranty! Not only is it an unnecessary requirement, but it's also insufficient. I know if my 360 were to repeat it's problems that it would cost me to get it fixed....something I would not be too happy about because it's clear that this is a design/manufacturing fault and I should basically be entitled to a problem free machine. I swear if it stuffs up on Bioshock....well you guys will hear about it! icon_razz.gif

Also I would honestly be less harsh on the machine if I didn't have such a stable next gen machine to compare it to. I've said this before....but when all 3 next gen consoles were in development I was very excited....then all of a sudden the 360 pops out a whole year before it's supposed to and i'm like...."that's pretty underhanded Microsoft" cuz not only did they cheat Sony and Nintendo a little by doing this but they've actually stuffed with the unwritten industry rule and that was to sustain your console for 4 years and then release a successor. So Microsoft almost completely abandoned original Xbox consumers (game development stopped almost immediately....especially from Microsoft themselves) and cheated Sony and Nintendo by releasing the console first. So I wasn't too happy at this because well it's not really fair to anyone....I was an original Xbox consumer so I was surprised to see development for it completely halt especially when I was still able to purchase brand new games for my Dreamcast up untill a few months before. But Microsoft made one huge mistake....they stuffed up the design of the console itself....and quite honestly it's come around to bite them in the ass....and you know what? I see that as 'karma'....and it's basically the reason I have this underlying dislike for Microsoft this gen...although they have currently provided me with the best possible gaming so far.....but it's not like I wouldnt've experienced those games (except for the Microsoft stuff) on the Ps3 eventually anyways. MIcrosoft were underhanded (something I really don't like seeing) and they've paid the price for it (which is something I like seeing).

Anyways that's just how I feel on the subject and it's my opinion only.
4 years ago
No matter how hard you try to cover your ears screaming the Microsoft Anthem you can't deny the facts!

While people like to try and counter with the fact that PS3 has **** software compared to how superior it is for 360, here's a little piece of info.

Software can alway's be improved and downloaded to upgrade, but not the same with hardware.

MS has hit into a wall and Sony are slowly improving their software through updates, its only a matter of time. Before MS will be known for their flaws and not their achievements.
4 years ago
Mmm I think this problem will have to go beyond warranty if Microsoft want to truely clean this up. They need an internal structure re-tweaking.

But thats just something Microsoft don't sound willing to do, and is the reason I believe Xbox only has enough fuel for this year.
4 years ago
admeister wrote
LeonJ wrote
I want somethign they I can be 100% confidient I will not have any problems with.
I'm amazed that you have an Xbox 360 then.
You missed my point. If I buy a blue-tooth headsets and it keeps disconnecting then what can I do? Do you think Sony is going to help me? This is what is wrong with Sony. They are leaving it all up to people instead of standardising equipment or providing help. The options is a prefect example of this, half the things there are vague technical things where you have to go look it up on the net. There isn't any nice text or anything that explains them.

360 may die on me, but at least I can back up within a week for free.

Honestly if the PS3 had been a better product and they got their stuff together + this coupled with the 360 problems, Sony could have blown them out of the water. But as it stands, the PS3 is more of a media unit and not a games machines right now and despite the 360s hardware problems, it's the gamers choice for a console right now.

You know I can't work out why ppl are so defensive of the PS3. Honestly, in this coming year, what is there to look forward to? Can you see most of your time invested on the PS3 over the 360 or even Wii? Sure a pro is 'hardware is more reliable'. Con, there are no games nor does it stand up the 360 overall implementation. Honestly if the PS3 had a better line up over the 360 I would be on the PS3 bandwagon.

PS - Went into Harvey Norman yesterday and their PS3 kept locking up icon_smile.gif
4 years ago
^ Well then you missed my point....and that is if Microsoft hadn't rushed the 360 to the market with all these hardware problems then chances are these games would be on the Ps3. It's just Microsoft stole exclusivity by releasing the 360 1 year early....and it's great they've been able to do this....but at what expense? The customer's? I'll have you know that not everyone is a hardcore gamer where they're prepared to buy another 360 as soon as the previous one fails.

LeonJ wrote
360 may die on me, but at least I can back up within a week for free.
I'm not sure what you mean by this but the only problem you're gonna be covered for 'free' for is 3-red-rings! So like I said before....you better hope it's nothing else (and there is a range of problems it could be) because it won't be 'free'.

P.S. I've lost count of how many 360's i've seen as display units that have crapped themselves. Infact almost all the ones that are working have minor problems aswell....like guide button doesn't work, controllers are assigned wrong etc.
4 years ago
LeonJ wrote
You know I can't work out why ppl are so defensive of the PS3.
you know, i was thinking the same thing of the X360.

what i really don't get is people praising the fact that MS are quick to repair/replace faulty/broken units. i mean, it's great that their customer care is good, but i'd prefer NOT to need it.

i don't know, i guess i just expect more than that when i fork over my money.

---
i wonder how much effect the shape of the unit has. i've always hated the inhale look of the XBox 360, so i guess i just wonder if the lines were straight, would heat dissipate better? (no reason to doubt it wouldn't - seems like pretty rudimentary fluid physics.)
4 years ago
^ Good point Obs, like i'm a 360 owner and I have no reason to stick up for the dodgy hardware! Also i'll say it again...if these games had not come out on the 360 they would've eventually come out on the Ps3...that's fact!! The only games that you can exclude from this are the Microsoft developed ones! Hell even Gears of War would've come out on the Ps3 had the 360 not existed or even come out at the same time as the Ps3.

$650 is a lot of money to be plonking down for shoddy hardware! And as much as $1000 is....that damn thing is actually worth it! No single blu-ray player can compete....and it does play games....especially to those people that don't have the 360 and are only experiencing some of these multiplatform games for the first time.

Microsoft have done the dodgy and we're the ones paying for it with the numerous problems! This is unacceptable! And you're (LeonJ)complaining about lack of games on the Ps3 only because you've played these already on the 360. So quite honestly it's not that the Ps3 has a lack of games....it's because Microsoft released a dodgy unfinished/untested piece of hardware to steal the limelight from Sony!

Microsft were absolutely THRASHED last gen by Sony, so maybe they figured the only way they could get a leg up this gen was by cheating, taking short cuts, or whatever! This is so clear to me it's amazing why other people can't see this and continually stick up for Microsoft like they're personally the ones that made all the games and that this 3 year shonky hardware guarantee will see them through!

I guarantee my next 360 problem will have NOTHING to with the 3-red-rings.

The reason I like the Ps3 is because it's a next gen machine (more next gen than the 360) and it works much better, faster and quiter....so this means Sony have spent lots of time and money on the product to make it as problem free for the customer (the opposite of what Microsoft have done)...so Sony deserve to be commended for this! I don't care which company you are....you deserve some comendation for a well built piece of hardware which is selling at below cost price! Consumers should recognise this!!

The only way you cannot see this is if you're blind or you have something against Sony (nikack and LeonJ). icon_wink.gif
4 years ago
ugh the boot wrote
Also I would honestly be less harsh on the machine if I didn't have such a stable next gen machine to compare it to. I've said this before....but when all 3 next gen consoles were in development I was very excited....then all of a sudden the 360 pops out a whole year before it's supposed to and i'm like...."that's pretty underhanded Microsoft" cuz not only did they cheat Sony and Nintendo a little by doing this but they've actually stuffed with the unwritten industry rule and that was to sustain your console for 4 years and then release a successor. So Microsoft almost completely abandoned original Xbox consumers (game development stopped almost immediately....
There was a good 4 years support for the console. March 2002 (Xbox) March 2006 (Xbox 360), your maths is great icon_rolleyes.gif even after that the Developers where releasing games for a good 6 months post 360s release
ugh the boot wrote
and cheated Sony and Nintendo by releasing the console first.
Cheated Sony and Nintendo. OH NOES! Microsoft had a structure to push the console out before Sony! What an unfair practice

ugh the boot wrote
chances are these games would be on the Ps3. It's just Microsoft stole exclusivity by releasing the 360 1 year early..
No they provided a product that designers wanted to work with and consumers wanted to buy. Consumers didnt just buy it because it was a year earlier the the competition, there's combined reasons, such as price, previous games and other features that have helped the 360 reach its current install base.
4 years ago
^ Haha funny man! They had the structure to push it out earlier? What kind of structure do you have when you release a broken machine to the masses?

As if none of their consoles ever got red rings or something. They knew what they were doing, they probably thought they could isolate it. I mean, their new revision, the Elite (read: piece of poo) still has all of the same issues.

In the meantime, my PS3 has never even hicupped (spelling?) or made a damn noise.
4 years ago
Look, Microsoft has always had problems with hardware. I'm sure those of us who bought Xbox's will remember (and shudder at the mention of) Thompson DVD drives.

Remember, they're pushing these consoles out at a loss to themselves. The cost of making an Xbox 360 is far greater then the cost it is to purchase one. I don't blame them for using cheaper hardware. Sure Sony is selling at a loss too, and so they didn't go as cheap in the design as Microsoft, they're still losing a crapload of money...

As for releasing early being an underhanded method, if you ask me, it was simply good business. Just like Sony's done in the past with the PS2. I think everyone expects these companies to be saint-like in their techniques. Seriously, Microsoft didn't break any rules, and they didn't do anything immoral. Sure, their console might not be as powerful as the PS3, but that's what they choose, earlier release with less powerful hardware. From all accounts it's worked for the them too, the development is apparently easier, the install base is bigger, the console is cheaper to buy and the Xbox 360 has sold a lot more units.

Sure, this is hurting them, but I doubt it's related to the early release. If you ask me, it's because they don't want to loose heaps and heaps of money, and if you ask me there isn't anything wrong with that.
4 years ago
ugh the boot wrote
^ Good point Obs, like i'm a 360 owner and I have no reason to stick up for the dodgy hardware! Also i'll say it again...if these games had not come out on the 360 they would've eventually come out on the Ps3...that's fact!! The only games that you can exclude from this are the Microsoft developed ones! Hell even Gears of War would've come out on the Ps3 had the 360 not existed or even come out at the same time as the Ps3.

$650 is a lot of money to be plonking down for shoddy hardware! And as much as $1000 is....that damn thing is actually worth it! No single blu-ray player can compete....and it does play games....especially to those people that don't have the 360 and are only experiencing some of these multiplatform games for the first time.

Microsoft have done the dodgy and we're the ones paying for it with the numerous problems! This is unacceptable! And you're (LeonJ)complaining about lack of games on the Ps3 only because you've played these already on the 360. So quite honestly it's not that the Ps3 has a lack of games....it's because Microsoft released a dodgy unfinished/untested piece of hardware to steal the limelight from Sony!

Microsft were absolutely THRASHED last gen by Sony, so maybe they figured the only way they could get a leg up this gen was by cheating, taking short cuts, or whatever! This is so clear to me it's amazing why other people can't see this and continually stick up for Microsoft like they're personally the ones that made all the games and that this 3 year shonky hardware guarantee will see them through!

I guarantee my next 360 problem will have NOTHING to with the 3-red-rings.

The reason I like the Ps3 is because it's a next gen machine (more next gen than the 360) and it works much better, faster and quiter....so this means Sony have spent lots of time and money on the product to make it as problem free for the customer (the opposite of what Microsoft have done)...so Sony deserve to be commended for this! I don't care which company you are....you deserve some comendation for a well built piece of hardware which is selling at below cost price! Consumers should recognise this!!

The only way you cannot see this is if you're blind or you have something against Sony (nikack and LeonJ). icon_wink.gif
I can't do this...

Your post is an insult to the intelligence of not only myself, but the entire world.
4 years ago
^ Oh really? haha! Care to elaborate or are we to just take your word as gopel? icon_rolleyes.gif Also I love how you're speaking on behalf of the 'world'. icon_lol.gif

DeathFalcon wrote
Consumers didnt just buy it because it was a year earlier the the competition, there's combined reasons, such as price, previous games and other features that have helped the 360 reach its current install base.
No i think that's where you are wrong a large part of the 360's selling point was because there was nothing else on the market. I know if all 3 had come out at the same time I would've probably only bought the Ps3.

Also maybe it was 5 years but I know Microsoft broke an unwritten rule by releasing it when they did. Not a biggie...but definately underhanded.

And personally I couldn't give a crap what happens to Sony, but when I have games such as Dead Rising and Lost Planet with the potential to be better on the Ps3 then hell yea I care that the games came out on the 360 instead.
4 years ago
ugh the boot wrote
DeathFalcon wrote
Consumers didnt just buy it because it was a year earlier the the competition, there's combined reasons, such as price, previous games and other features that have helped the 360 reach its current install base.
No i think that's where you are wrong a large part of the 360's selling point was because there was nothing else on the market. I know if all 3 had come out at the same time I would've probably only bought the Ps3.

Also maybe it was 5 years but I know Microsoft broke an unwritten rule by releasing it when they did. Not a biggie...but definately underhanded.

And personally I couldn't give a crap what happens to Sony, but when I have games such as Dead Rising and Lost Planet with the potential to be better on the Ps3 then hell yea I care that the games came out on the 360 instead.
How would Dead Rising be any better on the PS3?
4 years ago
So if you read again....I said 'the potential'....maybe with a hdd and the blu-ray format they could've done more.

Stop wasting my time and actually read the posts carefully.
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