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Matt Bassos
16 Dec, 2008

Document suggests MS knew about disc scratching

360 News | Lawsuit reveals Microsoft potentially knew about Xbox 360 disc damaging before console launch.
Seattle Tech Report has revealed that an unsealed document in a lawsuit last week suggests Microsoft employees knew Xbox 360 disc drives could scratch game discs, before launching on the market in November 2005.

The fault stems from the drive which is said to be defectively designed by plaintiffs filing ongoing legal cases in the U.S. District Court in Seattle, because tilting or swiveling the video game console can scratch game discs playing inside.

While most of the court declarations are sealed, a newly unsealed motion has uncovered information about Microsoft's recognition of the the disc reorientating while playing in the console.

Hiroo Umeno, a Microsoft program manager, said in a declaration, "This is ... information that we as a team, optical disc drive team, knew about. When we first discovered the problem in September or October (2005), when we got a first report of disc movement, we knew this is what's causing the problem."

The declaration continues that after the Xbox 360 launch, Microsoft sent a team of engineers to stores across the country "to investigate complaints that the Xbox 360 was routinely scratching discs during demonstrations."

The motion also mentions Microsoft determined that the deep gouges or disc scratching was caused with discs becoming "unchucked" and colliding with the drive's optical pickup unit, and that Microsoft considered possible ways to fix the problem but in the end rejected all of them.

Microsoft did eventually institute an Xbox 360 disc replacement program that sends out new discs to customers if their discs are damaged for any reason. The program only applies to Microsoft titles and costs $20 per disc. According to Microsoft employee in the motion more then 55,000 customers have complained about broken discs.

Despite this potentially alarming information A Microsoft spokesman responded to the filing today by saying the disc scratching issue was not unique to the Xbox 360.

"Xbox 360 is designed so that it will not damage a game disc as long as the console is not moved while the disc is spinning," he said. "Too much movement of any game console, not just Xbox 360, can cause scratches on a disc. That's why we put a warning on the face of the disc tray, which the user has to physically remove before the initial use of the system. We also have warnings posted online and in hard copy instruction manuals."

The spokesman also said the 55,000 contacts the company has had represent a tiny percentage of the Xbox 360's in the market.

"While we have had some users contact us with concerns about scratched discs, it is less than one-half of 1% of the total Xbox 360 user base," he said.

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72 Comments
1 year ago
This and the RROD are my two biggest concerns with the 360. I know that you can scratch discs on other consoles, but even slightly bumping my 360 has brought up that dreaded grinding noise. I don't know why the 360 scratches discs so easily, although I have read that it might be due to Microsoft deciding not to include buffers to hold the disc in place like other consoles use.
1 year ago
Meh, who cares.
1 year ago
Meh, i only get that ring around the centre.
Or when i turn it off by holding in the button, then pop the disc out.
1 year ago
Ugh, it's not as if optical disc drives are a completely mature technology that has existed for over 25 years and been refined to the point that it works in car stereos and pocket-sized devices without ever scratching a disc, is it?
1 year ago
hmm, i had my 360 take a bite out of a game before,
however ive had my wii fall from a table while running and the disc was unharmed, cant say about the PS3 but in my experience the only console that has damaged discs has been the 360

I still shudder when i remember that horrible crunching, grinding noise that came out of the 360
1 year ago
Jibbs wrote
Meh, who cares.
The people that have had a 360 eat there discs probably?
1 year ago
Benza wrote
Jibbs wrote
Meh, who cares.
The people that have had a 360 eat there discs probably?
I sure did when it happened to me.
I guess all the people filing law suits, probably Microsoft now.
Meh who cares about stupid posts?
1 year ago
I've lost nine discs to this issue.

With multiplatform titles I would opt for the graphically (or otherwise) superior version as a matter of course.

Since I scratched three GTA4 discs over six weeks I have started to buy the PS3 versions without even checking a comparative review.

I have a 120Gb Harddrive on the way that will enable me to use the new Copy to HDD feature. Hopefully this will mitigate this flaw to an extent.

The official line from Microsoft seems to be "We warned you good, use at your own risk". To be honest I knew about this problem before the Aussie launch for the console, and bought into the platform anyway. So I guess the market is willing to accept this shonky product.

When people ask me to recommend which console they should buy I say:

Wii: pretty cheap, underpowered, small library, a few unmissable games

PS3: pretty expensive, physically huge, small but expanding library, few downloadable games, a few unmissable games

X360: mid range price, loud console, prone to failure (I’ve broken three), largest library both on and offline but access to games is not guaranteed (I must be online to play the arcade games I bought with the previous consoles, and the disc scratching issue), a few unmissable games

So far everybody I've given this advice to as decided to wait for price drops, hardware revisions, or the next gen as the case may be. Still despite this brutal analysis I find room in my heart for all three consoles. It’s a shame about the dead discs though, it would have been easy to fix during the R&D stage.
1 year ago
PimpHat wrote
(I must be online to play the arcade games I bought with the previous consoles)
Why not do the recovery thing - it allows you to restore all of your content to a new HDD/console for exactly that purpose doesn't it? I wish I could remember the URL but I'm sure someone else here has probably done it and can post it.
1 year ago
PimpHat wrote
Wii: pretty cheap, underpowered, small library, a few unmissable games

PS3: pretty expensive, physically huge, small but expanding library, few downloadable games, a few unmissable games

X360: mid range price, loud console, prone to failure (I’ve broken three), largest library both on and offline but access to games is not guaranteed (I must be online to play the arcade games I bought with the previous consoles, and the disc scratching issue), a few unmissable games
360 is cheaper than the Wii.
1 year ago
Sinthesys wrote
360 is cheaper than the Wii.
you mean the 360 with no hard drive? that renders it useless to many of the 360 features. and the fact that you can buy a hard drive optionally is no consolation, it then makes the console more expensive than a wii. false economics... as usual when talking about the 360
1 year ago
Dude, it costs $20 for a 20gig harddrive, not like we're talking yatch money here. So, no, buying a HD after the console purchase doesn't make it more expencive than the Wii.
1 year ago
Typical M$, Can't trust them.
1 year ago
I've had my 360 for nearly 2 years now, and never ever EVER scratched a single disc (even Halo 3!!). Obviously anyone who scratches a lot of discs (lets say 9) shouldn't be allowed to own a console that uses discs (maybe they should stick with first gen Nintendo consoles.....).
Anyone who DOES scratch discs regularly should consider not shaking their 360/having it on an uneven surface while it's in operation.
Well, that's it.
1 year ago
RhysDeschain please don't post such comments without doing some research first. While it is a guaranteed fact all 360s will scratch games if tipped over while running, there are many that will do it REGARDLESS.

At US launch the most common disc drive to be found in the Xbox 360 was the Hitachi. This drive is notorious for scratching games for no reason whatsoever. My best friend was lucky enough to get a Hitachi drive in his 360 brought this year, and his GTA IV was broken as a result. He never tipped his 360. Ever.

Though the problem is far more severe on that drive, no Xbox model is immune. I own two Xbox 360s and nobody on this earth takes better care of their discs than I do. Every disc I own, save for the three I shall mention, is immaculate.

But both my 360s have done this to me.

The first had drive crash while playing Lost Odyssey Disc 1. The console chewed up the game while crashing, and subsequently the game could not be played. Microsoft replaced this disc for me for free. And failed to fix my Xbox. The same problem happened again on Disc 4 of the same game, and again Microsoft replaced it and again failed to fix my xbox. So I bought a new one.

This console crashed while playing The Last Remnant. Eject disc. Big circular scratch. Oh thanks. That console RRODd shortly thereafter. Luckily this game still works.

Do not assume that just because your Xbox has not done this, that in fact yours represents every single one of millions of units sold since 2005 and because you haven't had an issue nobody else possibly could without being a complete incompetent who doesn't know how to handle discs. It is and has always been a well known fact that the 360 has a plethora of hardware faults.

Look at this forum. Almost every single regular poster here who has an Xbox 360 has had some sort of hardware fault. Most, if not all own another system that has never had any problems whatsoever. So are you saying it's them?

I don't think so.

I think you need to consider your comments more carefully in the future, so that people like me will not need to waste ten minutes instructing you on your foolishness.

Please don't bother to rebut me, I'll not waste any more time on this.
1 year ago
When I told the guy on the Xbox "help" line a couple of years ago telling him that the drive was scratching up my Gears of War (1) disc, he gave me the "M$ has tested the drives and they are shown not to scratch discs" line...

I'm holding it in my hand looking at it thinking WTF??
Started getting regular dirty disc errors and sent 360 off to Sydney --> got fixed and voila! no more disc scratching!!

Luckily a mate worked at JB and just swapped the game for me but I was fuming with M$ (but I can't stay mad at you for long baby...).
1 year ago
.......... I think you're the one who wasted your own time writing that short novel, and I guess I am the proud owner af a magical 360 that has never scratched a disc a disc!
Yay me!
I guess what I'm really trying to say is be careful out there, kids.
1 year ago
Watch out for the Americans to sue the crap out of M$.

I remember the PS2 having this exact problem with the first generation.

@ mipac - Who the hell bumps their console while it's running anyway? It's got wireless controllers.
1 year ago
LeonJ wrote
Watch out for the Americans to sue the crap out of M$.

I remember the PS2 having this exact problem with the first generation.

@ mipac - Who the hell bumps their console while it's running anyway? It's got wireless controllers.
Man plays GoW.
Friend enters with pet.
Man moves console.
Disc scratched.
1 year ago
Jibbs wrote
Meh, who cares.
This astounds me, a company in building a machine to mass produce to the public come across an error in their hardware (minor % chance to damage brand media) and, deciding not to fix it and release anyway, your opinion "meh, who cares."

Who cares that company A decided "screw fixing the problem"?
Who cares that company A still decided to retail at a price that defined a complete working solution when it was in fact not?
Who cares that consumers were then duped and have to go through lawsuits because company A were slack and wanted to release?

Are we honestly to the point where it's ok to spend hundreds of dollars on an optical based entertainment player where it could critically fail, overheat and combust and destroy media all out of the box simply because the level of gravity was disturbed ever so slightly? Within 1 or 2 generations we've gone from such players that could, while the media is running have the lid open and the entire thing inverted without interrupting play to a player who destroys media because it gets a little bump, or isn't properly ventilated.

That people are still purchasing such items on launch astounds belief.
1 year ago
Spokesperson wrote
"Too much movement of any game console, not just Xbox 360, can cause scratches on a disc.
I've had a Gamecube and Wii fall ~1.5m from the shelf during Games of Smash Bros, and neither disk has a scratch on it.

Seriously, damage control ain't going to work if you've got actual Ex-Microsoft employees backing up claims.
1 year ago
I had a hitachi drive, it almost killed my Forza 2 disc. Took about 10 tries before I could install it when NXE came out because of scratches.

I sent off my 360 to get the drive replaced last year after it kept giving me "rear error" messages (took a weekend; sent on Thursday, received on Monday!), they replaced it with a different drive and haven't had a problem since.

One of the biggest shames of this generation is that such a brilliant software platform has been let down by the hardware so badly. (And the exact opposite for the PS3, come to think of it)
1 year ago
franky573 wrote
Sinthesys wrote
360 is cheaper than the Wii.
you mean the 360 with no hard drive? that renders it useless to many of the 360 features. and the fact that you can buy a hard drive optionally is no consolation, it then makes the console more expensive than a wii. false economics... as usual when talking about the 360
Many of the xbox 360 features? Try one. saving games to HD. Otherwise you can have arcade games, game saves, and the new update etc.

Anyway, To the guy who is like 'ive lost 9 discs to the issue'

There is a simple instruction.

DONT MOVE THE CONSOLE WHILE ITS ON.

Sure its so inconvinient to not be able to give your controller a little kick until the turn it off, its not to hard to follow a simple isntruction and leave it up. After the 3rd or 4th, or (heavens) even the 5th disc didnt you go 'wow, maybe I should stop knocking over my console". Ive never had this problem, because ive never needed to move my console while its on. Honest to god its pretty sturdy. If you have a 3 year old giving it a knock, put it in a high place, if you dont want problems put it on its side. Seriously its not too hard.

My friend bought his console on launch with a hitachi drive, has followed all instructions and never had any problem. Ive had 2 consoles, No disc scractching problem on either. I think most people 'claim' that it was on no reason but in most cases accidentally moved their console anyway.
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