R18+ rating discussion paper to be released

360 News | It's a start.

At the recent meeting of the Standing Committee of the Attorneys-General (SCAG) in Brisbane, it was agreed that a discussion paper on the proposed introduction of an R18+ rating for videogames will be released before the end of the year.

SCAG oversees the National Classification Scheme and in most jurisdictions, Attorneys-General are also the Ministers responsible for censorship. It was key R18+ rating supporter and author of the draft discussion paper, Victorian Attorney-General Rob Hulls, who achieved the agreement with fellow Ministers.

A spokesperson for Mr Hulls said, "Censorship Ministers at SCAG agreed that the discussion paper will be finalised by the end of the year, with the view to Australia-wide distribution."

Only last week, the discussion paper and any hope of an R18+ rating was under threat when South Australia Attorney-General Michael Atkinson declared he no longer supported the release of the discussion paper and subsequent public consultation. The reasons behind his much-welcomed back flip have not been revealed.

Importantly, when finalised, the discussion paper will be available to the public and industry groups on the internet. More details on the paper will be published when it becomes available.

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41 Comments

Maxxxie74

1 year ago

It's about time! GG, SCAG!

renegadesx

1 year ago

Unfortunatally they are going to listen too seriously to these "family associations". People who have repressive censorship hopes like the Family First party and the Australian Christian Lobby.

They don't represent the views of your typical Australian family (90% is a big enough number for that) but they claim to and people believe them. They use words like "family" and "children" to get their way without even representing either.

When you really think about it by using them for their fodder, the Family First party and the Australian Christian Lobby exploit children.

Passa

1 year ago

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Ebe9BEe024U

Atkinson is an arrogant moron, calling all countries with R18+ ratings as swine.. seriously, what the hell. How can he possibly say that considering his position in the government?

Regardless of Atkinson and his reporters blatant lies and exaggerations about games (he says there is a correlation between game violence and real world violence, saying "games cause shootings in America" and even referencing the Thailand taxi killing) I still do not support an R18+ rating for Australia.

I think people are missing the point entirely when it comes to the issue. How many games are banned a year? How severe are the modifications we get? Yeah there are unreasonable edits to games, but we generally get almost everything. So what will an R18+ rating do?

So let's rewind to GTA IV's Australian launch. I'm guessing if we had an R18+ rating, Rockstar would have sent it to the censors with the prostitution scenes remaining. I think it's more than likely that it would have scored an R18+ rating. Is GTA IV an R18+ game? Personally, I think the answer is clearly NO.

The real issue here is the discrepancy between movie and game ratings, an R18+ rating WILL NOT FIX THIS but merely make the problem a whole lot worse with the OFLC inclined to throw games into that new category rather than 'squeezing' them into MA15+ as they've been doing. Now I can legally go out and watch the entire Saw movie series being over 15 (since it's rated MA15+). But I would be legally unable to play a version of GTA IV without the edits, or Fallout 3 with some pissy drug references.

It's f**king absurd that people think this will solve anything. Yeah, in the short term, adult games will be able to pick up all titles without edits. However in the long run, you're making games a niche hobby. I'll be thoroughly displeased if an R18+ rating is introduced, and am relieved it wasn't introduced before the release of games like Fallout 3 and GTA IV, two games I wouldn't have been legally allowed to play had the rating existed.

So yes, I would prefer nothing to happen than for the rating to be introduced, but I think the best course of action is a complete overhaul of how the OFLC rates video games. The discrepancy between the treatment of movies and games is a massive problem and will continue to be a problem regardless if there is an R18+ rating or not.

Please think twice before mindlessly supporting this.

Black Wolf

1 year ago

Passa wrote

So you still want Australia to be the laughing stock of the world?

Sin Ogaris

1 year ago

So what you're saying is because you want free reign of all the violence and gore on offer at the moment that we, as adults, should be denied games because it means that a couple may get bumped up to R instead of MA?

The Games rating system is EXACTLY the same as films. The only difference is the lack of an R rating. In terms of the violence of Saw it's all about how long the violence is on screen for. That's the distinction between MA violence and R violence, screen time. Games are less inclined to have that luxury especially if you are the one enacting said violence. Suddenly a scene which might run for a second in a movie could be repeated 20 times over within the confines of a game. So the basic principles of both ratings systems are the same however they are two vastly different mediums.

Sure the drugs and sex will bring about an adults only rating but has it really been any different in films? Drugs still 95% of the time will garner an R for film, dropping the C bomb is also an R rating in the making. The sex thing, well, it depends on the sexual act but Fahrenheit got through no worries. Personally I think Rockstar jumpbed the gun big time on censoring GTA4, I honestly don't think the Australian censors would have had a problem with it, it's only because they lied about what was in San Andreas and then got scared.

So I am strongly for an R rating so that I am free to play what I want, when I want.

Puddingfork

1 year ago

Sorry Passa but I think that's a bit of a selfish point of view (I plussed for the video link). Games can only get more realistic and more violent, and we will start to see more good games not quite manage to squeeze into an MA rating, in fact it has already started happening with Silent Hill, but I think it can only get worse. I am your age so this affects me the same, and I don't care if I can't legally play a few games I still believe it should be allowed. Also my Mum thinks I am mature enough and I am pretty sure she would buy me R18 games anyway. If not its only a year and a half wait.

I don't think it will cause more problems as you see it, because I don't consider them problems, in fact they are sort of solutions. For example you can legally play those games, and that's fine I'm not saying you shouldn't, but its the people illegally playing those games that is where the problem is. I'm sure lots of 12 year olds have parents allowing them to play MA games (there is probably a 12 year old in the country that owns Dead Space, which is horrible considering the game play often encourages removing enemies limbs to defeat them), but if those MA games were R then I don't think they would be playing them. If those MA games were R these kids wouldn't play them until they were 15.

lennex15

1 year ago

Interactivity is always going to set gaming apart from movies or other forms of entertainment where they are just visual and/or audio.
The fact that you can make a conscious choice whether to kill someone or not and in what manner to do it means your interacting with it. Which i think results in a required shift of focus because your making choices which produce results.
The same could be argued with watching a movie but your not affecting how that movie will play out your unable to affect it's plot or conclusion. In a sense you have no moral choices to make except initially which is whether it's suitable for you to watch or not.
I want R18+ because it will better inform choice for people and especially parents who are attempting to perform their role as mediators for what's beneficial for they're children.
R18+ I hope will also help developers and retailers make more focused games on they're target audience if it's an adult game it gets made that way.
I see this as the main need for R18+ and the fact that more and more games are being squeezed into an MA15 rating when they're unsuitable.
I would like to see adults awarded the responsibility of a classification of they're own. As i find it condescending as an adult i need to be protected from anything classified over MA15

Tooki

1 year ago

I agree Pudding. I had a similar situation when I was 13-14 & just got my xbox. My parents got me GTA & Halo 2 (both MA) because the rating was only a couple of years above my age. I know for a fact they wouldnt let me see an R18 movie at the cinema with them or hire one out, so the R18 will give a better indication of what is in the game. Because at the end of the day, most parents know jack s**t about video games & basically look at the front cover, back cover then the rating.

Also I have some problems with what you said Passa. I understand you wont be able to get the games, I know considering I recently turned 18. I see the point of the R18 rating is to give adults like myself the same freedoms other 1st World countries get. I think the ignorance of Atkinson is an insult to not only Australia but also to the other Attorney-Generals who have been able to put their ego out of the equation & actually think about the state they are representing.

Also Passa, the R18 will bring confidence to the said parents when choosing games for their kids. I think its a joke that 12 year olds are playing these games. 18 is also a better indicator, parents HAVE seen R18 movies & know the levels of graphic content so hopefully they would perceive it with games too.

Also whats wrong with the OFLC. They have done a great job considering they have no R18 rating to work with. They DONT want to prevent us having games but are forced to when its content is too great for the MA15+ conditions. To put things in perspective, we dont have an R18 rating YET a 16yr old can buy a knife. Hypocritical much?

Passa, Im not trying to say you shouldnt have your opinion on this. If thats how you should think it is, I cant do anything to stop that but the R18 is more than just an excuse for more violent games. Its a symbol of the freedom we are slowly losing, especially with the Internet Censor....but thats for another thread

Passa

1 year ago

Oh give me a break. Even just look at the titles that have been rating MA15+. For example, looking at two games released in the same generation, Halo: CE and GTA III, both scored MA15+ ratings. The extremity of the content in these two games is vastly different. The rating system for games is broken. My point remains the same. You don't see many popular, big-budget movies being rated R18+, however in your ideal world we would have relatively tame mainstream games scoring that rating. I'm sure that will be great for the attempts for video games to be taken seriously as a medium.

Drugs resulting in R ratings for movies? What? Drugstore Cowboy: M, Blow: MA, Easy Rider: M, A Scanner Darkly: M.. I think my point is obvious. But somehow the drug use in Fallout 3 was a jump to R. We need a dedicated game rating system like PEGI or the ESRB that is actually catered to video games.

Selfish Pudding? No, I'm talking hypothetically. I would have been able to buy these games regardless, but in the eyes of the law I would not be able to do so by myself. Also to lennex, the addition of interactivity has in no way been scientifically proven to make video games a medium with more impact. Your interactivity when shooting someone in a game is limited to nudging an analog stick around and hammering on a shoulder button.

You all seem to be missing the point. There is a massive stigma associated with the R18+ rating. Do you see R18+ movies being advertised around your local cinema? Plastered on the walls of your local Video Ezy? I certainly don't. To claim it will 'inform parents' is quite the opposite, instead fuelling the mass hysteria behind why games are the bane of our modern society and the cause of everything from school shootings to cancer.

I'm not saying that R18+ video game content shouldn't come to Australia, I'm very much against censorship. But I have absolutely no faith in the OFLC to use an R18+ rating appropriately.

Enjoy your marginalised entertainment medium.

EDIT: And silent neggers are losers. State your opinion before you neg others opinions.

Tooki

1 year ago

Of course R18 movies arent advertised all over the place, same reason alcoholic drinks arent shown all over the place. I actually have no problem if R18 games were to not be overtly advertised, because the people who want it would of known about before they got to the shop. Also a system where they arent on display & have to be requested from the clerk wouldnt be a bad thing either.

After reading over your posts again, I see why pudding thinks your selfish. Why should the people who WANT the R18 rating be neglected because some dont want it. For those who dont want it (mostly non-gamers), it wont mean much as they wont use it.

And just to get it out there again, R18 PREVENTS minors from getting the game. Last time I checked under 17's are a MINOR. I dont think its wrong, the whole point is to PROTECT the children. Wait your turn, im sick of the kids thinking their adults.

The Brett

1 year ago

Who cares what mainstream media think? All I want to do is play the games that I want to. What you're basically arguing here is if we introduce an R18+ rating, people like Atkinson will have a better argument. But that misses the point - the argument is flawed in the first place so intelligent people won't care either way. Honestly I'm slightly uncomfortable that even the edited version of GTAIV is an MA game. It is absolutely worthy of an R-rating. I would have no problem with a few games that are currently scoring MA's to see R-ratings.

Passa: your argument about advertising for R-rated movies is fundamentally flawed. R-rated games receive less publicity because of their niche appeal not because they are violent or contain drug use. Most people don't want to watch Hellraiser just because they can; but shows like Entourage have much more mainstream appeal.

It's like black metal music. I don't listen to it but I'd sure as hell would oppose attemps to ban the sale of the music in Australia just because of violent themes etc.

Passa, do you realise what you're saying? Sure, your argument on face value seems valid but what you're fundamentally saying is that Australian adults should be censored because of the fault of others (the OFLC, politicians). You should just be lucky we don't live in America; as far as I know they don't have an MA15+ rating, which would put you in an even worse place using your logic.

Tooki

1 year ago

MM they have a Teen 17 or something like that.

I think the fact your under 18 ultimately shows how this doesnt affect you. You may think it wont do anything but consider this:

When I went into EB last Tuesday to cancel my GoW2 preview I saw a 12-13 yr old pick up Dead Space & ask his mum to buy it. Thing is, she said she would let him get it because *its only MA*. Now I dont know if she would do it if DS was R18 but thats what the R18 rating prevents. The clerk even looked at her going, *is this for you or your son* (who had walked out before she paid for it). Couldnt help but lol

The Genius

1 year ago

Sin Ogaris wrote

Well said Sin. The games rating is the same as the movie rating interms of content, the only difference is the lack of an R18 rating.

I mean anyone who played Dead Space would have been shocked at some of the gore. Yet this is a game that is rated MA15. In the rest of the world it is rated 18.

So technically speaking, we are getting really violent games, just a different age certificate.

No seriously folks think about it in two ways. A lot of the games classified MA15 should really be classified R18 like they are in other nations. At the same time, just because there is an R18 rating in USA and UK for example, there are still games that are Refused an R18 and classified Adults Only. Thereby virtually making them hard to do well in sales as they wont be allowed to be sold at all retailers.

So getting an R18 will not prevent games like Manhunt for example being banned here. I mean, the same game is having problems being given an R18 classification rating in USA and UK.

So basically folks, don't think getting an R18 will be the end of banning of games here.

notsofat

1 year ago

passa i think you've made the most valid and well thought out argument ive ever seen on a forum, ever.

still, i have to disagree and say that the introduction of an R18 rating is liberalization of media, and at a time when the government is on the way to censor the internet, any little increase to consumer rights is a good increase.

At the very least an R18 genre is an indication of acceptance of the form of media, games, being recognised as a more legitimate artistic industry, and not just a toy for kids. Who knows it could be a large step towards developers receiving that 40% cut aussie movie producers get.

Passa

1 year ago

Tooki wrote

Of course R18 movies arent advertised all over the place, same reason alcoholic drinks arent shown all over the place.
Also a system where they arent on display & have to be requested from the clerk wouldnt be a bad thing either.

Alcoholic drinks are not advertised all over the place? I'm guessing you don't regularly watch sport on TV. Also the notion of putting these R18+ games behind the counter frightens me even more. So now we want to put video games in the same category as cigarettes.. right.

Generally I would agree. R18 titles would, in an ideal world, be extreme enough that they would need to be placed behind the counter. I'm not saying nothing should be done, but I think the present solution we are trying to achieve is definitely the wrong way to go about it.

I could sit here and extol the benefits of an R18 rating all day, however as I said, I have absolutely no faith in the OFLC to use the rating appropriately. You'll find nothing will be better with an R18 rating. Because of the stigma associated with one, I imagine developers will avoid scoring one here regardless of whether or not they are banned from sale, almost similar to the useless Adults Only rating in the ESRB.

The Brett wrote

your argument about advertising for R-rated movies is fundamentally flawed. R-rated games receive less publicity because of their niche appeal not because they are violent or contain drug use.

And you've just reiterated as to why I am so concerned. Fallout 3 would have scored an R18 rating unedited, how on earth does it have a niche appeal when there's another thread in this section detailing how it has already shipped 4.7 million copies worldwide?

The Brett wrote

but what you're fundamentally saying is that Australian adults should be censored because of the fault of others (the OFLC, politicians)

Wrong, I am saying we should seek another solution. I am very much against censorship. An R18 rating is not the only way to go with addressing this problem. Many of you fail to realise we are one of the few countries without a dedicated system in place for video game ratings. Japan has CERO, Europe has PEGI and North America has the ESRB. An R18 rating is a band-aid solution to a serious problem.

lennex15

1 year ago

I worry when I have children that my obligations in ensuring what's best for them will be thwarted because of a lack of information.
I want an OFLC that makes decisions based on content and when in a grey area err's on the side of caution.
I would want to be a responsible parent some day who is interested in their child's interests and as such provides the censorship as a parent i should. Supports them yes but isn't a mindless fruit cake and a mobile atm.

I want to stop being patronised like i might not be able to handle R18 I'm 26 for frig sake.
I want gaming to be cosidered as a real form of entertainment and that the median age group of gamers is much more mature than prejudged and as such we should be catered to directly.
I want an OFLC that doesn't squeeze anything where it shouldn't go call it what it is. Set out clear guidlines on what categories have what in them.

Either that or have no classification system cause if your gonna do it half arsed what's the point.
I want retailers to be responsible for what they do. That is ensure the people to which they profit from are valid and marketable consumers.
I want to support an Australian gaming industry rather than having to look overseas for the same content they're allowed or looking to bit torrent websites.
(I'd also like prices to reflect the true value of the australian dollar)
I want make sure that I have fun for what I want to do. I get so annoyed when it's obvious a game exceeds it's rating or that the goal posts are continually moving.
Where one game was refused another 2 years later with same content accepted where's the justice and consistency in that.

Edit:
Why have an inconsistent rating sytem it would create more confusion you need to cater for the mainstream and what people are familar with unless you want the government spending all my taxes on blitz advertising. Trying to get uninterested people to understand.
A seperate classification system is only going to segregate the gaming industry further. It's basically saying well they're special for what reason we don't know but let's use a different sytem for rating cause we just cant fit them in more confusion and inconsistency would surely arise.

Fly

1 year ago

Tooki wrote

When I went into EB last Tuesday to cancel my GoW2 preview I saw a 12-13 yr old pick up Dead Space & ask his mum to buy it. Thing is, she said she would let him get it because *its only MA*. Now I dont know if she would do it if DS was R18 but thats what the R18 rating prevents. The clerk even looked at her going, *is this for you or your son* (who had walked out before she paid for it). Couldnt help but lol

That's the inherent problem for me since it's not just a gaming thing, it's uniform across the mediums, you can only legally deny service if a minor attempts to purchase the product, that minor could inherently walk up to the counter with their parent hand off the title and the parent pay for it, everyone knows the kid will play the game and it is effectively his purchase but that they are not the ones doing the purchase thus no problems outside of moral implications. (and stores have that nowadays?) That more than anything needs fixing since irregardless it's not as restricted as buying smokes or booze (where event hen, have a deep voice and a beard and you can also get away with it at some places) and no amount of change to the ratings system is going to change that.

This however, regardless of viewpoint is a step in the right direction since it can then lead to its own formation of opinions instead of simply being uniformed across the mediums, its not so much a band aid as it is framework to be built upon. In this sense, the OFLC does not have to be split per say, just adapted with a sub branch dealing exclusively with the interactive gaming framework instead of the larger picture.

Jellyfish

1 year ago

An R18 rating would kill a lot of sale for the so called big block buster games such as GTA "5" as the publishers wouldn't be allowed to plaster TV spots and billboard ads everywhere. While you'd probably find less games are being refused classification, some games will be still edited as the marketability of such titles would be greater if it were edited to be released under an MA15+ classification as opposed to an R18+.

So depending on how you stand, it still not may progress your position on why an R18+ classification is needed.

Sin Ogaris

1 year ago

[quote="Passa"]

Tooki wrote

I could sit here and extol the benefits of an R18 rating all day, however as I said, I have absolutely no faith in the OFLC to use the rating appropriately. You'll find nothing will be better with an R18 rating. Because of the stigma associated with one, I imagine developers will avoid scoring one here regardless of whether or not they are banned from sale, almost similar to the useless Adults Only rating in the ESRB.

I'm sorry but why exactly do you have no faith in the OFLC? If there was an R18+ rating, every game that is currently MA would still be MA, unless it had been editted. We also still don't know what the actual drug use content entailed in Fallout 3, perhaps we'll never know, it could have depicted your character injecting the drugs into their system, which is a little more severe than someone bending down to snort some coke in a film. We won't know though and that's because we don't have an R rating.

What stigma revolving around R18+, the only stigma is that minors shouldn't be associated with it, which is correct, they shouldn't. It's not like adults shy away from the ratings due to some bizarre taboo (that's more X18+ as it's a specialised rating, which is possibly more restrictive than all the others depending on how you look at it).

Like I said though an R rating wouldn't affect Dead Space, it wouldn't affect GTA (and again I seriously doubt the uncensored version of GTA4 would have been banned here there just isn't anything in the content that pushes it beyond an MA for games and Saints Row 2 pretty much proved this fact) it wouldn't affect Halo or Resistence or Gears of War or anything like that. All it would do is allow adults access to titles like Silent Hill: Homecoming, Dark Sector, Getting Up (this one's a grey area though, Getting Up might still be banned even with an R rating but again, without one we'll never know), etc.

As an aside I'm a little confused as to why everyone is using Dead Space as an example of excessive violence, 95% of the killing is aliens and they don't exactly leave a lot of blood. The most gruesome deaths are your own character which happen quite rarely (unless you suck or are playing on impossible) and even then don't exhibit gratuitous levels of gore (I should know, I've gone through each enemy scouring for their killing animation).

The Genius

1 year ago

Folks, ultimately the main root of the problem is the "video games are for kids' mentality that is still existant in a lot of our politicians and the classification board.

That is the mentality that is preventing games from being treated and classified like movies.

The Brett

1 year ago

Passa wrote

I think you have a very good point here but it's something even I'm a bit confused about still. At the moment, games appear to be rated directly against how content would be rated if it were a movie. When you think about it, if a movie like Fallout 3 were released complete with drugs and death aplently, it would probably get an R rating. Video games on the whole are a LOT more violent than movies.

But, having said that, I can play GTAIV for hours without batting an eyelid but show me 1000 old ladies getting run over graphically in a movie and I'd turn away. Sure, games are computer animations, which would explain this, but studies are still inconclusive as to the relative emotional impact. Do you have any thoughts on this Passa? I'd like to hear them.

Tooki

1 year ago

Passa: What I meant with the alcohol example is that you dont see it in places where children are involved. I.e you dont see it during kids shows etc.

I only recommended the behind-the-counter thing because it would satisfy the worried people who dont want kids near it. Honestly I wouldnt do it because movies are freely on display as well & doesnt much.

Also I still dont get why you have no faith in the OFLC. I think they do a great job considering they have to cater up to the 15+ rating. The OFLC dont set the laws or anything, they just review the content.

Fly: I agree with you man. Thing is, the guy who served seemed like a nice guy from the couple of times I spoke to him. He didnt even look like he wanted to give it to her but had to by law.

fantanoice

1 year ago

Quote

I only recommended the behind-the-counter thing because it would satisfy the worried people who dont want kids near it. Honestly I wouldnt do it because movies are freely on display as well & doesnt much.

Or they could do what they do with R movies at the movie rental shops, hide them behind a wall or something. xP

Quote

That is EXACTLY right!

Quote

A "band-aid" solution. I doubt that. If you have a better solution I'd like to hear it, because at the moment, we have a number of adult (take note of the word "adult") gamers who want to play some adult contented games, but can't because of the risk of children watching. The whole point of the R18+ rating is to RESTRICT (thus, by law not being able to interact with the media product, whether it be a movie or game) it from those who are NOT adults. Is there a better solution to the problem? What is a better solution then to just make it law to stop them getting access? Please tell me.

And yes, I am fully aware that younger people can still access them through things like parents and older siblings. However, as somebody stated earlier, parents are unlikely to find an R rated game appropriate for their child, because they would be fully aware of the reasons for it to be in that classified that.

Spanca

1 year ago

Tooki wrote

To put things in perspective, we dont have an R18 rating YET a 16yr old can buy a knife. Hypocritical much?

I believe it's actually 21 for a knife around here.

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