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Passa
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 Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Mush Man wrote: | | Pirates say that piracy isn't stealing. This fact is technically true. However, pirates make this an analogy. Pirates say that piracy is not stealing, which is a crime, and because piracy is not stealing, piracy is not a crime. That is wrong! Piracy may not be stealing but piracy is still a crime. |
No where has my own argument, or PixieGirl's, or anyone else's for that matter, stated that piracy is not a crime. I've been holding off saying this but seriously, you've totally missed my direction of the discussion. I'm not debating the legality of piracy. PALGN isn't a court of law. Your continued re-statement that piracy is illegal is all hunky dory, but totally missing the point. And to be completely honest, I'm really getting queasy at all the moral high ground stuff.
I described my own personal experiences with piracy, my personal opinions on the matter. As far as I'm concerned, there is a grey area - not legally, but morally. I can say with utmost confidence that I represent a massive net gain for the gaming industry as an individual. I spend hundreds of dollars feeding my gaming habit a year. I own some games twice for whatever reason. My circumstances obviously don't apply to everyone, but nor have I claimed that they do. I have no doubt there is a vast number of software pirates that are causing damage to the industry through piracy - but it is a far more complex issue than that.
My biggest issue is with this suggestion that every illegal copy represents $X lost revenue for Y developer and Z publisher. They are not all lost sales. The audience here is a hardcore gaming crowd - the majority of you are obviously inclined to pony up the cash for a game you want. There's actually a greater world out there of people who will download games on a whim, try them, decide they don't like them, and never play them again. Those people are not lost sales.
I'm not saying those people are on the right side of the law. This isn't a discussion on the legality of piracy. There's nothing to discuss there, because the law is black and white. The moral side? Personally, I don't think so.
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He need to cut the ego.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | There's actually a greater world out there of people who will download games on a whim, try them, decide they don't like them, and never play them again. Those people are not lost sales. |
This is where the problem lies for me. You can argue (and you would be technically correct) that it's not a lost sale because the person, after playing the game, won't buy it for whatever reason, but it's the 'after playing the game' bit that's the most questionable aspect. There are already things in place for people to make an informed decision on whether or not they will like a game. There's video game reviews, screenshots, demos, trials, videos, articles, there's EBs seven day return policy etc. Heck, there's even rental services - both online and off. There's enough information around for people to make an informed decision without the need to resort to piracy. The old 'try before you buy' argument in relation to piracy is foolish. We don't live in a 'try before you buy' society. It's 'cry after you buy'. 
Also, for the record, I used the 'contribute enough' argument when I was caught trying the new products at Woolies. God damn, I said. I've been shopping here for damn near twenty years. I've lined your fat pockets ten times over! Unfortunately they didn't see my point, even after I told them that what I was doing may be illegal, but it was at least in the grey area morally.
As for morals, well it's hard to argue against that given we all have different degrees on what we think is and isn't morally right. I personally believe piracy is morally wrong as well, but that's just me.
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renegadesx
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Island_Wolf wrote: | @PixelGirl - Just be careful, copying without an approval to do so can still get people in trouble in the eyes of the law (it's stealing), especially when people said they have the right to make a backup copies of games they buy, which I believe people are entitled to but by law it is not allow, no matter how much you say you are entitled to (unless the EULA said otherwise.
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An EULA that does not comply with the law (which either did or still does exist in regards to personal use backup copies) wouldn't hold up in court.
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Mush Man
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| Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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Edit (28/2/2011): Piracy discussion is stupid. This post was stupid. It is now removed.
Last edited by Mush Man on Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total
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GooberMan
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:45 am Post subject: |
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Oh, what is this preachy nonsense? Don't wrap up good points in an evangelical tone please.
You, the game playing public, have a responsibility to pipe up and tell the providers of your luxury service when they've gone too far. You don't have the right to play it without paying, and they don't have the right to screw you over in the process. And let's make it clear - I refer to them setting too high a price and crippling your system in the process.
Piracy exists because of human nature. The only way to minimise the effects is for both sides of the fence to realise this. Wherever there is demand, there is people looking to get it for less than the offering price.
You know what's really interesting to look at? The sales charts for the recent "pay what you want" campaign for World of Goo.
The game retails for $20 normally. Less than five percent of purchasers paid that much for it. The vast majority of people paid less than $2 for it. Think about that. We've seen a demand for the game, and people wanting to pay less for it. It may be safe to assume that a large chunk of the people that paid 1c were likely going to pirate the game anyway and may have only heard about it through this promotion. Those that paid less than $2 may have been intruiged by the premise and felt obligated to give an amount of money that wasn't ridiculous over to check it out. You may very well find that they wished to have given the developers more afterwards if they were impressed by the game. I'd say a sweet spot for pricing the game is somewhere between $5 and $10 there, with a nice freebie taster (perhaps a flash version) to entice people.
According to Wikipedia, the budget of the game was $10,000. The $5 sales easilly covered that. I'd really like to see what their sales data was like before their promotion.
EDIT: this is also relevant:
EDIT 2: I'm going to revise my "you don't have a right to play it without paying" statement. Tell me, have you ever borrowed a game off a friend? Okay. Now, I want you to tell me what the difference between borrowing a game and pirating a game is without referring to the fact that it's against the law or immoral.
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MIkes
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:56 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Mush Man"] | Jason Picker wrote: |
Try-before-you-buy pirates aren't as bad, however, they're pirates all the same |
Try-before-you-pi?
I'll get my coat 
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He need to cut the ego.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 7:10 am Post subject: |
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The World of Goo statistics just goes to show that it doesn't matter how low the price for video games are people will always try to go for the cheapest option to play a game.
| Quote: | | Now, I want you to tell me what the difference between borrowing a game and pirating a game is without referring to the fact that it's against the law or immoral. |
I don't get it. You want us to tell you what the differences are, but you don't want to hear about the two biggest differences (immoral and against the law) between the two. You've effectively cut out the answer to your own question, but for what reason? Because you know without those two differences there's not much else? Well, point proven, but it's completely beside the point. Well there is one thing - one could argue that there's at least a sale involved when borrowing games from a friend (your friend buying the copy), but strictly looking at it from the perspective of the borrower and the pirate, they are both playing the game through a means which doesn't support the publisher or developer.
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GooberMan
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| He need to cut the ego. wrote: | | You want us to tell you what the differences are, but you don't want to hear about the two biggest differences (immoral and against the law) between the two. You've effectively cut out the answer to your own question, but for what reason? |
To think about the problem differently. I gave everyone a situation where the developer is being "robbed" of exactly the same amount of money, yet everyone is fine with it.
Just because a law exists doesn't mean it's a good law. Claiming morality of a law when there's quite obvious counterpoints to it that invalidate the argument just clouds up the issue. Rather than thinking "but you just told us not to tell you the answer" you should be thinking "so what other answers are there then?"
Review. Reform. Educate. Regulate. There's a few starting points.
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Sinthesys
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly, profit-wise for the company, borrowing a game off a friend and pirating a copy of the game and then throwing said copy away is the same thing. there is only a loss in potential profits: however one is legal and the other is not, most due to the avenue for pirates to turn a profit on someone else's game.
However, morally, aren't you in the same position, pirate or friend borrowing game? Essentially, you are enjoying the artist's work without paying for it, which raises the same moral dilemma, does it not? I mean, isn't it more damaging to the industry to borrow 10 games over the guy who pirated one?
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GooberMan
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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There's plenty of ways to enjoy an artist's work without paying for it yourself. Have you ever watched television or listened to the radio?
Have you ever been to an art gallery? You're only paying to view the piece in person. The piece itself was already paid for, and in fact may even increase in value once it's out of the artist's hands.
If the commercial model in question has too many issues, then it's time to rethink the model rather than clamp down harder. It's the equivalent of jumping up and down on the spot screaming "IT WILL WORK IT WILL WORK IT WILL WORK NOT LISTENING LALALALALALALALALA"
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Sinthesys
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| GooberMan wrote: | | There's plenty of ways to enjoy an artist's work without paying for it yourself. Have you ever watched television or listened to the radio? |
Have you ever worked in a video store?
I pay for them by having money and being influenced to spend it, so if I have to put up with 5 minutes of advertising every 10 minutes in order to watch TV, I'm just substituting the monetary costs for my time and patience (and a sense of diminished satisfaction).
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GooberMan
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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Hey, there we go, we're redefining what it means to pay for something! Progress! There's no money involved on your part, yet everybody's happy.
So. How do you solve the same problem with games? It's certainly not a moral question. It's certainly something I don't have the answer to yet. It's definitely something that needs discussion instead of the banality that I've read all throughout this thread.
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Sinthesys
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Perhaps shoehorn in the same 'free to air' model? Use advertising in games and optional micro-transactions to make the cost of games less about the over the counter purchase and more about a product that generates money while the person plays. Wait, didn't EA try this with some of the battlefield games?
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TheAnswer
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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I'm just waiting for the day when games come with little advertisements before the start menu which will be a copy of the movie pirating ads that appear in front of a number of movies these days. "Would you steal a car?" "would you steal a phone?" "would you steal a TV?". Video game piracy is a crime.
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Vervain
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| TheAnswer wrote: | | "Would you steal a car?" "would you steal a phone?" "would you steal a TV?". Video game piracy is a crime. |
And I'll say the same thing that I say to the Movie one: No I wouldn't but I can't download a phone, car or TV off the internet now can I?
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GooberMan
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Sinthesys wrote: | | Perhaps shoehorn in the same 'free to air' model? |
Surely the word "shoehorn" should have tipped you off there that it needs more thought.
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Evan
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| He need to cut the ego. wrote: | | The World of Goo statistics just goes to show that it doesn't matter how low the price for video games are people will always try to go for the cheapest option to play a game. |
Well, technically it shows that games, like everything else, have a price elasticity curve where dropping the price increases the number of sales. Other indie developers would do well to take note; for anything other than a triple-A game with significant drawing power (such as Halo or Call of Duty 4), they're probably better off going with a fashion retailing price model where prices are fairly rapidly discounted on a relatively set schedule.
The games market is a prime candidate for discriminatory pricing; as the World of Goo has pretty clearly shown, there's a lot of people out there who are very price sensitive. There are also quite a few people out there who "have" to play the game on release. The best pricing model is one that takes advantage of that and discounts heavily over a significant enough time to week out everyone who simply can't wait any longer to play the game.
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Sinthesys
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| GooberMan wrote: | | Sinthesys wrote: | | Perhaps shoehorn in the same 'free to air' model? |
Surely the word "shoehorn" should have tipped you off there that it needs more thought. |
Hey, I like shoehorning things into places that they don't fit in.
And there is absolutely no subtext in that sentence.
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Mush Man
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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Edit (28/2/2011): Piracy discussion is stupid. This post was stupid. It is now removed.
Last edited by Mush Man on Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total
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AlaCarcuss
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:32 am Post subject: |
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Man there's a sh*tload of crap in this thread.
Contrary to what some have said - this a very black and white issue.
1. Why would I pay $90-$120 for a new release game when I can just download it for nothing? Because it's the right thing to do? Piss off. See, black and white.
2. Do I know it's the wrong thing to do? Sure. Do I care - nup. See, black and white.
This has been going on for 30 odd years now and they still have no idea what to do about it, except as been stated - punish the ligitimate users.
What gets me is all the hypocrits taking the high ground here. There's no doubt in my mind that every single one of you as been guilty of piracy at some time - probably ever other day.
Every time you download an mp3, or duplicate a CD, or record a TV program, you are infringing copyright and commiting piracy. What in gods name makes you think games are any different?
It's human bloody nature people - why pay for something if you don't have to? Because it's illegal or imoral - give me a break. How many of you have over stated your deductions on your tax return? Oh that's right - it's ok to steal from the government right?
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Mush Man
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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Edit (28/2/2011): Piracy discussion is stupid. This post was stupid. It is now removed.
Last edited by Mush Man on Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:22 pm, edited 1 time in total
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GooberMan
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Mush Man wrote: | | 1. There's only one copy. |
That you know of. Can you control what happens to that copy once it's out of your hands?
| Mush Man wrote: | | 2. Someone's paid for that copy. |
That'd be true for all pirate material, wouldn't it? Someone has to pay for and obtain a copy of something to begin pirating it.
| Mush Man wrote: | | 3. Only one person can play the copy at a time. |
But those copies that are out of your hands?
| Mush Man wrote: | | 4. Lending the copy to everyone who wants to play it and complete it takes a lot of time, effort and organisation. |
So does downloading it.
| Mush Man wrote: | | Anti-pirates, like myself, stand against video game piracy because it fails to benefit the industry, is an unjustified practice and diverts part of developers' budgets from the creation of video games to the creation of tools to stop piracy, thus hurting the industry. |
Meanwhile, people like myself who actually work in the industry and have their livelihood affected by it and have invested more time and thought to the subject than some overzealous forumer are here presenting an alternate viewpoint and encouraging people to think about the problem differently and do something about it.
Stop posting. You're not helping.
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Sin Ogaris
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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free-to-air and paytv recording USED to be illegal, I think they're altered those laws now though.
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GooberMan
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ObsoletE
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:42 am Post subject: |
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| Sin Ogaris wrote: | | free-to-air and paytv recording USED to be illegal, I think they're altered those laws now though. |
correct - you're allowed to record the shows to watch yourself, but lending it actually contravenes the law.
likewise ripping CDs and DVDs that you own to your media player - used to be illegal, now no longer.
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