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Cyph
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 Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| theory wrote: | | True HD? Anything from 720p upwards is TRUE HD, which PS3 and 360 can both do. |
High Definition is 720p, true. But from a marketing and general user standpoint, True HD is reserved for 1080p. Let's not get into a technicality shitfight, you well know what I meant.
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theory
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Honestly I didn't know what you meant. Not starting a shitfight either. Marketing ruins everything.
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grim-one
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Cyph wrote: | | theory wrote: | | True HD? Anything from 720p upwards is TRUE HD, which PS3 and 360 can both do. |
High Definition is 720p, true. But from a marketing and general user standpoint, True HD is reserved for 1080p. Let's not get into a technicality ****, you well know what I meant. |
Glorious 240p! =)
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Last edited by grim-one on Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total
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Cyph
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| theory wrote: | | Honestly I didn't know what you meant. Not starting a **** either. Marketing ruins everything. |
Oh ok. For some reason I thought we had this discussion before. Maybe it was with someone else on the forums. My apologies for being harsh.
And oh I hope someone from Capcom is viewing this thread right now...
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Benza
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | but all this costume/music/extra character/extra button for fighting crap needs to go. |
Man I like that shit too. The only time I have a problem with DLC is the unlocking shit all ready on the disc stuff. That shit is abohrent and the reason I'm not buying capcom games anymore.
As far as downloading new characters, new costumes all that stuff, as long as it's new content I don't see the big deal? If you don't like it it's not like anyone's forcing you to buy it?
I mean you can argue that 'oh this stuff used to be free' all you want but as far as I'm concerned it really wasn't. This stuff wasn't an option before DLC unless you played on the PC. You got what was on the disc and were happy for it. Now we get a chance to have more then what is on the disc and I don't see how that's a bad thing?
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jprockbelly
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Benza wrote: | | Man I like that **** too. The only time I have a problem with DLC is the unlocking **** all ready on the disc stuff. That **** is abohrent and the reason I'm not buying capcom games anymore. |
Nowdays DLC is developed at the same time as the game proper. So having it on the disk or just releasing it later seem pretty much the same. Heck, even planning to release DLC before you've released the game is cruddy.
Oh yeah, and:
| Benza wrote: | | unless you played on the PC. |
What have we learnt today 
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sithsylar
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Benza wrote: | | As far as downloading new characters, new costumes all that stuff, as long as it's new content I don't see the big deal? If you don't like it it's not like anyone's forcing you to buy it? |
My question to you tho is are they new... If DLC wasn't around would they have been on the final product.... Thats the real issue imho. Regarding no one is forcing you to buy it yeah thats true but people don't like buying 80% of one game....
| Benza wrote: |
I mean you can argue that 'oh this stuff used to be free' all you want but as far as I'm concerned it really wasn't. This stuff wasn't an option before DLC unless you played on the PC. You got what was on the disc and were happy for it. Now we get a chance to have more then what is on the disc and I don't see how that's a bad thing? |
Yeah the stuff wasn't an option back in the day because it was on the disc....
I just think it comes down to is it new or removed from final product...
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theory
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| jprockbelly wrote: | | Benza wrote: | | Man I like that **** too. The only time I have a problem with DLC is the unlocking **** all ready on the disc stuff. That **** is abohrent and the reason I'm not buying capcom games anymore. |
Nowdays DLC is developed at the same time as the game proper. So having it on the disk or just releasing it later seem pretty much the same. Heck, even planning to release DLC before you've released the game is cruddy. |
I was gonna say that Benza had a good point - extra stuff later on can be cool - but if they really develop it all at the same time and it's just a way of making more money then I am completely against it.
Ohnoes, I better rename this thread now: "DLC = Developers Laughing Consistenly or DO LIKE, C***?"
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Jarrod
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of developers have a hard-on for keeping games at 720p and using the extra resources to improve lighting and shadows, and dump a ton of AA, shaders and post processing on the image to clean up the IQ at the lower HD resolution rather than sacrifice processing power for full 1080p. There was an article about it recently, how some developers were interested in this approach, arguing that DVD resolution is "good enough" while still aiming for realistic, film-like IQ.
And theory is right, DLC is only going to get much worse before it gets any better. Though I suspect Sony/Microsoft will be more open to digital purchases of their big games, which could save some pennies (while pissing off retailers).
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jprockbelly
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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When I am emperor of the world I will crush DLC with an iron fist, ballads will be penned marvelling at the violence and brutality with which I erased DLC from the face of earth. But then the people will rally and rise against my tyranny. I shall dismiss them at first, violently if necessary, but the populace will not be silenced. Across the globe the people will rise up as one and take to the streets “BRING BACK DLC” they shall chant. “DOWN WITH THE TYRANNT”! My advisors (spine less yes-men for the most part) will praise my bravery and unwavering will, never will any of them suggest that I, the exultant leader, had perhaps gone too far.
Eventually I shall tire of the constant unrest. In my benevolence I shall decree “Hear me, citizens of C0ckrock!” (this is what I shall rename Earth, and yes it is spelt with a 0 to circumvent swear filters across the galaxy) “My paternal ear is always turned to thee, my beloved C0ckrockians. I hear your cry. I taste your tears. I share your pain. You ask for DLC to be returned to the light of day so that you may once again receive incomplete games, and pay extra for crappy features and patches which should be free. Alas for I have decreed that this shall never be. But fear not my beloved meat sacks, for in my infinite wisdom and benevolence I have seen a better future! A future where games shall flourish and extra content will be value for money every time, and there will be no wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
“I decree that from this day forth game publishers shall be allowed to release content after the major release of their title. However, this content shall take 1 of two forms, and only these options shall be tolerated on pain of death. It shall either be a patch, released in a timely manner freely for all platforms. OR an expansion pack, which may or may not be free, but must add significant content to the original title and be released at the same time for all platforms.”
Upon hearing this decree the people will be silent. For they will see the wisdom of it, and they will be embarrassed by their wonton desire to covet their neighbours DLC.
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Nietzsche
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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I would say with consoles you can get more out of the raw hardware than PC games can. Especially exclusive devs that spend 5+ years on the same hardware, for instance Naughty Dog are visual geniuses that get the most out of the hardware. Saying that a good PC will always decimate a console unless it's a poor port, you just need the money.
On the DLC thing I really haven't cared much. The only time it really really bothered me was the Catwoman stuff which is a clear example of taking something out to make more money. I hope games don't follow that direction.
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Benza
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Heck, even planning to release DLC before you've released the game is cruddy.
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I disagree, why is it bad to consider supporting a game after it's released? GTA 4 was designed with DLC in mind, the DLC ended up being amazing amounts of new content? Should they not have done that?
| Quote: | | Yeah the stuff wasn't an option back in the day because it was on the disc.... |
I've gotta disagree with this again. I mean yeah it probably does happen but I don't think it's anywhere near as often as people say it is.
I mean if you don't like what's included on the game dics, that's fine, if you think it's lacking or whatever. But that's a judgment against the actual game not against the possibility of DLC, it's not about Good DLC or Bad DLC it's about weather the game itself is worth it to start with?
I mean compare say MK9 to Super Street Fighter 4.
Just looking at the DLC, you'd say that MK 9 was obviously the worst offender. It had a whole bunch of DLC close to release including new characters costumes even fatalities. Compared to SSF4 which only had the costumes on release, but has continually added obviously new content over time like the Arcade Edition update etc that was like a year or so after the game came out.
But that's ignoring what is actually on the disc. MK 9 launched with a shit load of extras, a fully featured story mode, alt costumes for every character some of them even featuring entirely new voice's or animations and an absolutely obscene amount of unlockables such as concept art etc.
Compare that to SSF4 which had... what an animated ending in arcade mode for everyone and some colour schemes to unlock?
Some of the stuff very well could have been taken out of MK 9 to make it DLC, especially the klassic costumes. But the game itself has an absolute shit tonne of content already. Compared to SSF4 wich obviously had the stuff developed after the case, but was fucking anemic for content to begin with.
Ya know, I'd prefer the MK9 one every time.
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jprockbelly
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Benza wrote: | | I disagree, why is it bad to consider supporting a game after it's released? GTA 4 was designed with DLC in mind, the DLC ended up being amazing amounts of new content? Should they not have done that? |
If you're talking about Liberty City that (in my mind anyway) is an Expansion Pack not DLC. Big difference.
Re: MK9 Vs SF, not really sure what your on about there? As far as I can tell your just saying that one game is crapper than another.
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GooberMan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Jarrod wrote: | | A lot of developers have a hard-on for keeping games at 720p and using the extra resources to improve lighting and shadows, and dump a ton of AA, shaders and post processing on the image to clean up the IQ at the lower HD resolution rather than sacrifice processing power for full 1080p. |
I'll just elaborate on this a bit.
The X360 has a rather weird GPU setup. RAM is shared between graphics and normal resources, and all processing and output needs to be performed on the 10MB of EDRAM embedded on the GPU. Now, with a full 720p colour buffer and corresponding depth and stencil buffers, you basically have fuck all room to upload textures and geometry.
To get around this, rather than adding even 5MB more memory they decided to implement a tiling solution. The mentioned buffers can be split in half (or smaller) and everything gets processed twice just to be rendered to the one image.
On the Xbox at least, developers have a hard on for 720p because it's ridiculous enough just to get that image in order.
The big one though is that a lot of developers prefer to keep the refresh rate at 30Hz so that they can put in more of those effects and do more with CPU time and all that. Which really annoys me personally, more games should aim for 60Hz. Call of Duty: Black Ops was so much better on the Xbox for it, and it certainly didn't look completely rubbish compared to its competition.
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Benza
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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talking about gay tony and lost and the dammed.
Where do you draw the line between DLC and an Expansion Pack then?
Like would the add on for Prince of Persia be DLC or an Expansion Pack? The extra missions in Saints Row 2?
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Jarrod
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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There's no difference between DLC and an expansion pack. They're effectively the same thing. The difference is in the distribution. All content of all sizes is DLC. We just happen to live in a shitty digital age where it's cheap and easy to exploit consumers with overpriced, tiny digital crap, something harder to do back in the day when large retail expansion packs were a more viable and common business strategy.
And thanks for the extra insight, Goober. I'm pretty sure that same article I'm talking about mentioned framerate as well, devs again stating that locked, lower framerate was okay as "DVDs do it".
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Frozencry
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| GooberMan wrote: |
The big one though is that a lot of developers prefer to keep the refresh rate at 30Hz so that they can put in more of those effects and do more with CPU time and all that. Which really annoys me personally, more games should aim for 60Hz. Call of Duty: Black Ops was so much better on the Xbox for it, and it certainly didn't look completely rubbish compared to its competition. |
I really, truly hope that devs realise just how much better 60hz is as opposed to 30hz. The difference is night and day and a nice example is RAGE, which was designed to be 60hz and though it had its problems, still had some amazing fluidity to it and still looks pretty damn good on the consoles.
Hell, PC users are starting to move into 120hz let alone being capable of 60, so it's about time they upped their game and had 60 as standard IMO.
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GooberMan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Jarrod wrote: | | I'm pretty sure that same article I'm talking about mentioned framerate as well, devs again stating that locked, lower framerate was okay as "DVDs do it". |
Back in the PS2 days at Krome, it was basically "We could run at 60 or we could have twice as much grass."
Grass won.
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Jarrod
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, that's their attitude. "If we can achieve the same IQ and production values of DVD image quality, why increase the resolution/framerate for a less detailed image?"
Here's the GAF thread based on the articles I was talking about.
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Esposch
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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Am I the only one who doesn't really mind 30FPS?
I'd rather have the jaggies cleaned up.
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GooberMan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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In my experience, many reviewers can't tell the difference between 30 and 60. Sad fact, but of all the 30Hz games I've worked on I can't think of one where multiple reviewers haven't commented on the silky smooth 60 the game runs at.
Just as an experiment. I want to ship a console game where you can turn everything on and have it run at 30, or turn some stuff off and run it at 60. Then collect metrics to see who prefers what.
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Nietzsche
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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About frame rate, it should be picked game by game. Yes 60 frams is great especially with FPS and driving games but I don't need 3rd person shooters and the like, to sacrifice visual videldity just for a frame rate.
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Jarrod
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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I think people pick up on fluctuations moreso than the actual framerate. Average Joe (and then some) wont spot the difference between locked 60 and locked 30, but a framerate fluctuating between the two is really, really noticeable. And really fucking annoying.
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NeoSanity
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| GooberMan wrote: | | In my experience, many reviewers can't tell the difference between 30 and 60. Sad fact, but of all the 30Hz games I've worked on I can't think of one where multiple reviewers haven't commented on the silky smooth 60 the game runs at. |
This is probably because for the last 50 years of transmission television and 100 years of film running at 24Hz people have become used to low refresh rates. In fact one of the reasons movies aren't shot in 60 frames is because many people consider the movements to look 'unnatural.'
Ugh, what is wrong with people?
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theory
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| NeoSanity wrote: | | Ugh, what is wrong with people? |
They don't know any better because they are conditioned with the same old refresh rates. It's easy to blame people for being stupid... I do it a lot... but it's hardly their fault if they never knew anything different.
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