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drinniol
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 Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Benza wrote: | | I loved both Princess and the Frog and Tangled. Those movies are a show of how you can make a movie aimed at one specific demographic that's actually enjoyable for people of all ages and genders that go to see it. Hell my mum loved Tangled and she's in her 50's. |
And people of all ages enjoy Skyward Sword. If you didn't enjoy Princess and the Frog would you complain it wasn't made specifically for you? I mean you might do so, but you'd look like a bit creepy ;)
| Benza wrote: | | The old Zelda games made when the chief demographic of gaming was 10 year olds treat their audience as being smarter then the zelda game that comes out when most people playing games are in their 30's. Does that make any sense to you? |
Yeah, how many of those players make up the over 90 million Wii owners? Worldwide sales of OoT were under 8 mil for the generation.
The game isn't any easier than OoT, you're just told where to go next without pushing C-Up to listen to Navi. There's no Super Kong or Cosmic Guide. It's annoying, I would like to be able to turn it off, but it's in no way ez-mode.
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Benza
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | And people of all ages enjoy Skyward Sword. If you didn't enjoy Princess and the Frog would you complain it wasn't made specifically for you? I mean you might do so, but you'd look like a bit creepy 
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Well I like to think my greivences were a little bit more indepth then "This game isn't made for me" and more a long the lines of "This game is rubbish" 
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The game isn't any easier than OoT, you're just told where to go next without pushing C-Up to listen to Navi. There's no Super Kong or Cosmic Guide. It's annoying, I would like to be able to turn it off, but it's in no way ez-mode. |
I think you missed my point, I'm not saying they are, yes granted that a lot of the people that own the Wii have never played console games before, it's tapped into a huge previously untapped market. My point was that a lot of people playing the 64 would have been just as unfamiliar with video games. But that didn't make them treat their consumers like idiots.
There is a big difference between making a game ez-mode and talking down to your consumers, Skyward Sword does the latter, it treats you as the player like you're incompetent and unable to remember what you were told to do like 10 seconds ago. Something like when you get the slingshot, the big fat forrest dude gives you instructions on how to use it, what buttons to press etc, then when you walk to the entrance of the temple that is like 1 minutes walk away, Fi pops out and gives you the exact same instructions again.
It isn't making the game easier, it's treating you like you're a moron that can't remember what was said 60 seconds ago.
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drinniol
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Benza wrote: | | I like to think my greivences were a little bit more indepth then "This game isn't made for me" and more a long the lines of "This game is rubbish" |
As that may be, it's subjective, and the only way to get anything resembling an objective point of view is to look at a game's overall reception which, in this case, is far from rubbish :)
| Benza wrote: | | My point was that a lot of people playing the 64 would have been just as unfamiliar with video games. But that didn't make them treat their consumers like idiots. |
It's not the same comparison between generations. It was established gamers generally buying the N64, as the PS1 was by far the most popular machine.
| Benza wrote: | | It isn't making the game easier, it's treating you like you're a moron that can't remember what was said 60 seconds ago. |
Or like someone who's never played an action adventure game before. For each of us going 'stfu you squeaky hag' there may very well be someone thinking 'that's helpful'.
I would just like to see people separate 'I don't like it' and 'it's a bad thing'. Which, I know, is a pipe dream.
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sobriquet835
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| drinniol wrote: |
It's not the same comparison between generations. It was established gamers generally buying the N64, as the PS1 was by far the most popular machine.
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Problem here is that when this generation (PSx, n64) was released, there were no "casual" games. They basically started coming out late in the Playstation's life cycle, with stuff like EyeToy. Sony had won the console race well before then. Ergo, established gamers were the only market at this point. Before that, the closest you got to "casual" games were things like Mario Kart.
Anyway, this stuff is off topic. Here's somwthing a bit closer to the topic in hand: What's with all the hate for the DS Zelda games? I enjoyed those much more than Twilight princess. Admittedly, I haven't played Skyward Sword. I probably won't ever play it, to be honest. I've not enjoyed one of the 3D zelda games.
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GooberMan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| drinniol wrote: | only way to get anything resembling an objective point of view is to look at a game's overall reception which, in this case, is far from rubbish  |
Ocarina of time - 99 critic score, user score 94.
Majora's Mask - 95 critic score, 89 user score.
Wind Waker - 96 critic score, 86 user score.
Twilight Princess - 95 critic score, 90 user score.
Skyward Sword - 93 critic score, 78 user score.
Objectively there, critics still love rating Zelda, but user ratings have generally be getting worse indicating that more people think Zelda is rubbish as time goes by. So, objectively, shut up and accept the criticism.
| drinniol wrote: | | It's not the same comparison between generations. It was established gamers generally buying the N64, as the PS1 was by far the most popular machine. |
Citation needed.
| drinniol wrote: | | Or like someone who's never played an action adventure game before. For each of us going 'stfu you squeaky hag' there may very well be someone thinking 'that's helpful'. |
What, like a kindergarten student? I can't think of any other part of society where basic information is repeated ad nauseum in such a fashion. And sometimes, with the same colourful presentation.
Personally, the thing that's soured my opinion of this iteration is that I can't watch it without wanting to pay it out. I love watching other people play Zelda games. Usually. This one, there's just far too many bad decisions (such as the ill-advised stamina bar, and Fi - who is actually far more annoying than Tingle ever was) for me to enjoy it. For every bit where I think it's cool, there's something just around the corner that annoys me. I didn't even get that on Phantom Hourglass, which seems to be the turning point for quite a few people here.
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Jarrod
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| sobriquet835 wrote: | | Anyway, this stuff is off topic. Here's somwthing a bit closer to the topic in hand: What's with all the hate for the DS Zelda games? |
Because they have problems (looking at you Temple of the Ocean King), and because the Zelda fanbase, like any fanbase for a legacy franchise, is one of the worst in all of gaming. The widely varied cocktail of game mechanics that make up Zelda causes people to gravitate towards difference elements over others, and the wide variety of Zelda games in general, in terms of setting, themes, direction, and gimmicks, makes it easy for people to pick their favourite and moan when others don't follow suit.
Some people like motion controls, some don't. Some people want open world Zelda, some like the funnelled environment design. Some like the story, others want more subtlety. Some want better combat, some wish there was better combat. Touch screen rules, touch screen sucks.
You can stand back and objectively criticise elements of every game and have pretty insightful discussions with the right people. But from experience those people are hard to find. For some 'fans' simply setting Skyward Sword in the sky was enough for them to hur derp over how awful this game is. "Link rides a bird and once I was swooped by a magpie and it hurt me plus I like horses and cat people this Zelda is the worst ever Nintendo doesn't know what they're doing they should fire Eiji Aonuma PS my favourite Zelda is Majora's Mask".
Much like a lot of these franchises I just stop talking about them to people because I'm tired of the bitching that I don't agree with half the time, just play and try and enjoy the game as it is, and then post my own personal whines on the internet.
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Benza
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| drinniol wrote: | | get anything resembling an objective point of view is to look at a game's overall reception which, in this case, is far from rubbish |
What? No it isn't, an overall reception is a horrible way to gain an accurate measure of it's quality. Otherwise I'd have to jump on the train to suck Bioshocks cock because so many critics were awed by someone using art deco and a shitty book to make a game while ignoring fundamental gameplay elements like... fun and challenge? I'd have to accept that fucking war horse is a better movie then Tin Tin because reviewers fall for that saccharine sentimental bullshit every fucking time and ignore the fact that it's a transparent Oscar bait movie with no redeeming qualities.
At this point in time the critical reception for first part Nintendo games means basically nothing. They consistently get ridiculously over inflated scores that I struggle to believe that an identical game made without a Nintendo license would receive.
| Quote: |
Or like someone who's never played an action adventure game before. For each of us going 'stfu you squeaky hag' there may very well be someone thinking 'that's helpful'. |
Do you remember all the hand holding in the original Zelda? You know the one that pretty much invented the action adventure genre?
| Quote: | | I would just like to see people separate 'I don't like it' and 'it's a bad thing'. Which, I know, is a pipe dream. |
But I don't like it because they're bad things. The game functionally doesn't work like the controls do not do what they should half the time. This isn't a design decision this is a broken game mechanic. The stamina idea is a bad idea. Having to wait for your stamina to fill up while you do a block pushing puzzle is objectively bad. It serves no purpose other then to pointlessly make you wait. These aren't little slip ups these are broken game mechanics. They are bad things.
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Jarrod
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| Benza wrote: | | But I don't like it because they're bad things. The game functionally doesn't work like the controls do not do what they should half the time. |
This is one of those things that no matter how much you try to claim is an objective fact, is still ultimately subjective, because your experience is not interchangeable with mine. 'Functionally doesn't work...half the time' is, for my game time, factually incorrect. I voiced my issues with some of the motion controls, particularly the thrust, but 80% - 90% of the time controls were responsive and accurate. Sword play, item use, controlling Link, aiming, etc; it worked.
So, if we were to debate this, where could we go? I think it sucks you and others had that experience, and to me shows there is some technical issue. But I cannot buy into the claim as an absolute. It would be intellectually dishonest, because my first hand experience was completely different, and I've seen others feel the same way.
Its really quite incredible how polarised, both in taste and technicality, the Zelda fanbase is, especially for Skyward Sword.
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Benza
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:34 am Post subject: |
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A game not working for some people isn't subjective, it's not a matter of me not being a fan of the motion controls (I'm not but I'll live with them) it's a matter of the game is resetting the default position of my wii-mote after half an hour of play or so so that when I'm holding it in front of me it's registering as me holding it half behind my head. It's a glitch that exists, not a subjective opinion of the control scheme.
It's kind of like saying "Well I'm playing Skyrim on the 360, so the fact that it's broken on the PS3 is subjective cause I haven't had slowdown"
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Jarrod
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:41 am Post subject: |
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I wasn't questioning the objectivity of something technical being wrong with the game, but your personal experience relative to mine and others, and the extent to which 'functionally broken' defines Skyward Sword's controls.
This is the reoccurring theme I see with so much of the game's criticism; people mixing subjective mechanic issues with inconsistent technical reports and using this as a basis for "No man, the game sucks, you just don't get it". Not that I'm accusing you of such things, simply playing devil's advocate to the whole debate.
And in the case of Skyrim, yes, it is broken. On the PS3. Because 100% of PS3 users experience these technical issues. The 360 build, on different hardware, with different technical issues, is not broken to the same extent, and users are unlikely to run into the same problems.
We're talking about the same game played on the same hardware with the same controls, yet the differences in experience here are just as polarising as Skyrim's two builds.
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Benza
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:22 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | On the PS3. Because 100% of PS3 users experience these technical issues. |
They haven't though, my mates never had a problem with skyrim on the PS3 and he's been playing far longer then me... well by no problems I mean the slowdown from the long gameplay, he's still had the mental dragons and shit like that.
... although I guess to be fair, even if the controls had continued to work as well as they did when working, my opinion wouldn't change on the game, it's still balls.
| Quote: | | What's with all the hate for the DS Zelda games? |
To sum it up succinctly, the ocean king temple.
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Jarrod
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| Benza wrote: | | They haven't though, my mates never had a problem with skyrim on the PS3 and he's been playing far longer then me... well by no problems I mean the slowdown from the long gameplay, he's still had the mental dragons and **** like that. |
The technical issues on the PS3 and the known software and hardware causes well documented, to the point where it is a near certainty your friend will run into the same issues eventually. The Obsidian dude went into detail about why the engine does what it does on the PS3's architecture, and the difficulties of fixing it.
There's really no argument here, just that the bitterness of having a horrendous experience with the controls, for whatever reason, technical and subjective, are not universally agreed upon by all people who play the game. A contribution to why you dislike the game so much is how unresponsive and 'functionally broken' the controls were. A contribution to why I enjoyed it is how responsive, enjoyable and functional the controls where. Either one of us is lying or there's a significant degree of subjectivity and/or technical experience difference between our two playthroughs.
And my point was, ultimately, this why I don't listen to many hands-on opinions of Zelda games, because of how different experiences can be. You could have argued to me until your face turned blue that the controls are broken and horrible, but it would be an inaccurate assessment of the guaranteed Skyward Sword experience, and had I listened to you I would have missed out on the game. On the other hand, I might have had the exact same problems as you and voice the same complaints. But I didn't.
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Esposch
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Benza wrote: | | At this point in time the critical reception for first part Nintendo games means basically nothing. They consistently get ridiculously over inflated scores that I struggle to believe that an identical game made without a Nintendo license would receive. |
http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-2/okami
http://www.metacritic.com/game/ds/shantae-riskys-revenge
http://www.metacritic.com/game/wii/little-kings-story
http://www.metacritic.com/game/playstation-3/modnation-racers
Yeah, I guess there's a bit of bias, but it's not like terrible games are getting 10/10 just because they have Mario on the front.
| GooberMan wrote: | | Objectively there, critics still love rating Zelda, but user ratings have generally be getting worse indicating that more people think Zelda is rubbish as time goes by. So, objectively, shut up and accept the criticism. |
Not at all. All it means is that Skyward Sword has attracted a larger, more mainstream userbase. The Metacritic user ratings don't just reflect the quality of the game, but also the type of people who played it as well as how much internet hate it managed to garner.
If we're going to look at the user ratings as a measure of quality, Metal Arms is better than Halo, and Modern Combat: Domination (made by Gameloft) is leaps and bounds ahead of Modern Warfare 3.
TL;DR: Disparity between user and critic ratings for Skyward Sword (probably) has nothing to do with critics being out of touch. Instead, it's because of the increased popularity of Metacritic between 2006 and now resulting in a significantly higher number of fucktard fanboys.
Hence why no change is seen on sites that have been popular for far longer:
http://au.gamespot.com/the-legend-of-zelda-twilight-princess/platform/wii/
http://au.gamespot.com/the-legend-of-zelda-skyward-sword/platform/wii/
http://au.wii.ign.com/articles/749/749286p1.html
http://au.wii.ign.com/articles/121/1212220p1.html
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GooberMan
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Esposch wrote: | | All it means is that Skyward Sword has attracted a larger, more mainstream userbase. |
Citation needed. You can start by comparing sales of it to Ocarina of time, which managed over 7 million on the N64 and 3 million so far on the 3DS. Skyward's only done 3 million so far. The userbase is obviously not larger, and a claim of more mainstream is mere conjecture unless you can correlate the people who buy Skyward Sword with those that only play Wii Sports and Raving Rabbids etc.
Further, let's go to the numbers. 676 users have rated Ocarina of Time on Metacritic. Only 153 more have rated Skyward Sword. Now, just for some fun conjecture with numbers, if 676 of those Skyward Sword raters managed to get an average of 94, those remaining 153 users wouldn't be able to bring it down to a 78 average if they all rated 1. Funny thing about bell curves too - it's statistically highly improbable that 153 users rated the game 1.
What gets me is despite the numerous complaints in this thread about various aspects of the game, devout fans of the game will pass off any kind of criticism. Be it an aggregated site or specific comments. The general consensus I've found from both the internet and people I know in real life that have played it is that it's an underwhelming disappointment.
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drinniol
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| GooberMan wrote: | | You can start by comparing sales of it to Ocarina of time, which managed over 7 million on the N64 and 3 million so far on the 3DS. |
Sure, when Skyward Sword has been released for 13 years as opposed to 3 months.
As for users on metacritic? Let's see what quality those views are. Cock-A-Saurus helpfully gave it a 0, but in his review says "In the end, I don't think this game is awful, but its not great, let alone the "best Zelda ever" as so many idiots have noted."
Totally balanced there. Let's not forget the 88 critic vs 3.2 user MW3.
| Benza wrote: | | Do you remember all the hand holding in the original Zelda? You know the one that pretty much invented the action adventure genre? |
Now are you trying to say the NES and the Wii demographics are identical?
| GooberMan wrote: | | What, like a kindergarten student? I can't think of any other part of society where basic information is repeated ad nauseum in such a fashion. And sometimes, with the same colourful presentation. |
Holy shit that's my point - it's a kid's game.
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?oe?oe
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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Esposch
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| GooberMan wrote: | | Esposch wrote: | | All it means is that Skyward Sword has attracted a larger, more mainstream userbase. |
Citation needed. |
Sorry, poor wording.
I meant to say that it had a larger, more mainstream userbase of Metacritic user reviewers.
As in, Metacritic was not nearly as big as it is now when all the older Zelda games came out, hence for Ocarina of Time, most people reviewing it would be people who played the games 10 years ago and have nostalgic ties to it, and for Twilight Princess, it would be more immune to internet hatespamming as Metacritic was a smaller site back in 2006.
That's why I gave the GameSpot and IGN links as a comparison, as both were pretty popular sites back in the GameCube era as well as today.
| GooberMan wrote: | | Be it an aggregated site or specific comments. The general consensus I've found from both the internet and people I know in real life that have played it is that it's an underwhelming disappointment. |
Unlike Twilight Princess?
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Benza
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| drinniol wrote: |
| GooberMan wrote: | | What, like a kindergarten student? I can't think of any other part of society where basic information is repeated ad nauseum in such a fashion. And sometimes, with the same colourful presentation. |
Holy **** that's my point - it's a kid's game. |
uh... you realise it's rated M right?
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Esposch
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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^It's still got child-friendly themes in it, like Xenoblades. It's E10+ in America.
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Frozencry
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Ocarina of Time was also a childrens game, as was Twilight Princess and many other Zelda titles, but none had the insane amount of hand holding that Skyward Sword allegedly has. Those games were also loved by the 10 year olds of then and no one had a problem with it. I don't think I was 9 let alone 10 when I played it and was fine with what it showed me.
I haven't played the game so I can't pass my judgement on it, but from what I'm hearing it seems that they overdo it with reminders and tutorials and it comes out as almost condescending as if to say that every gamer has some serious issues with remembering things.
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jesuslol
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| GooberMan wrote: | | Further, let's go to the numbers. 676 users have rated Ocarina of Time on Metacritic. Only 153 more have rated Skyward Sword. Now, just for some fun conjecture with numbers, if 676 of those Skyward Sword raters managed to get an average of 94, those remaining 153 users wouldn't be able to bring it down to a 78 average if they all rated 1. Funny thing about bell curves too - it's statistically highly improbable that 153 users rated the game 1 |
I don't think you understand how Metacritic user reviews work. The only people that bother to rate it either like the game and give it 90-100 or they hate it and give it a 1. I can easily see 153 people giving it a 1.
On the control issues, I had next to no problems. All the controls worked perfectly except the thrust on occasion. When my batteries were going flat I had some problems but they disappeared when I changed them. I have heard that a Wii remote with the Motion+ extension works differently to the Wii remote with it built in so that might be the original of some issues.
To people complaining about Fi, I've read multiple user reviews on Metacritic whining about the controls when it is obvious from reading it they were 'doing it wrong'. So many people skipped all of Fi's instructions because they already know what to do but don't. Then they blame the game.
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Fyuusii
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Benza wrote: | | drinniol wrote: |
| GooberMan wrote: | | What, like a kindergarten student? I can't think of any other part of society where basic information is repeated ad nauseum in such a fashion. And sometimes, with the same colourful presentation. |
Holy **** that's my point - it's a kid's game. |
uh... you realise it's rated M right? |
Because the M classification has always been a stalwart bastion of access control in this country, amirite?
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Big Pete
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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If there was one 3D Zelda that runs the risk of ageing poorly it's Skyward Sword.
Nintendo appear determined to make motion controlled gameplay work and I can see them using SS as a sort of platform for them to advance not only the Zelda series but also the motion controls themselves. 10 years from now I can still see people enjoying Ocarina of Time for what it is but I can't say the same for Skyward and can see people cringing during certain sections and some of the primitive uses of motion control.
It will still have it's fans, especially those who realise that Nintendo made the right decision to go in the direction Skyward did but I believe the overall concensus will look down on this game. I wouldn't feel too bad for Skyward, it could be worse, you could be Twilight Princess and nobody will really remember you fondly except for the furry community.
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Jarrod
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Big Pete wrote: | | 10 years from now I can still see people enjoying Ocarina of Time for what it is but I can't say the same for Skyward and can see people cringing during certain sections and some of the primitive uses of motion control. |
Ocarina is excellent but as time goes by it's popularity will wane as the old grow older and the rose tinted goggles of nostalgia don't effect the new generation who didn't grow up with the game. Same goes for Mario 64 and the 'magic' of every game each and every one of us played as kids. They were perceived as ten fold better than however much we might have liked them if we played them first today, regardless of how good they are.
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Big Pete
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Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Posts: 3794
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Location: Brisbane QLD
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think future generations will look at Ocarina as the series magnum opus like the current generation does but I think they'll appreciate it in terms of concept and pacing.
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