| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
JackSlack
Status: Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 1175
$poons: 244.60
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
 Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:48 am Post subject: Greatest game designer currently working: Your call? |
|
|
 |
|
Picking up from here.
For my money? As I said, Fumito Ueda. I put him in the lead by a long shot; Ico & Shadow of the Colossus are pretty much my #1 and #2 games ever, in that order, and I'm really hopeful for The Last Guardian as well.
I'd also give high marks to Clint Hocking, and grudging nods to Jason Roher. (I admire his works more than I enjoy them, sadly.)
Also, of course, much love for Miyamoto. That he's one of the greatest pioneers of the form goes without saying.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Benza
Status: Offline
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
Posts: 14586
$poons: 119.20
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
See my problem with Ueda (apart from really not liking Ico) was that Shadow of the Collsus, while I'll agree is a great game now should not have been released on hte PS2, the system was simply unable to handle what the game was trying to do and it resulted in a game that was fucking ambitious as hell but suffered through shocking frame rate drops, muddy graphics etc.
A good game designer needs to have more then just ideas, they need ot have a solid grasp of the technology that they're working with. They need to have those great ideas, but then be able to work them into the hardware that they're using so that it all runs well.
Shadows of the Collosus failed miserably at that. It had all the ideas in the world but the but fell apart on the technical side.
I'll come back to this with who I think the best are.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
topaz
Status: Offline
Joined: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 190
$poons: 39.80
Location: Sydney
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
Don't know about the best, but Tetsuya Mizuguchi (Rez, LUMINES!!!!!!!!!!!!!crack!!!!!, Child of Eden) is definitely up there.
_________________
 
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JackSlack
Status: Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 1175
$poons: 244.60
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Benza wrote: | | See my problem with Ueda (apart from really not liking Ico) was that Shadow of the Collsus, while I'll agree is a great game now should not have been released on hte PS2, the system was simply unable to handle what the game was trying to do and it resulted in a game that was **** ambitious as hell but suffered through shocking frame rate drops, muddy graphics etc. |
That's fair, and the frame-rate drops are undeniable. (I still think the original on PS2 looks amazing, though -- I'd not have called it muddy.) That said, I think the game powers through those issues. It's not just ideas: It's that he seems to be one of the few game designers at all attempting to convey ideas and concepts embedded directly into the gameplay, and of those who are he's certainly the clearest and sharpest at it.
But I do accept your critique of it; you're not wrong at all.
| topaz wrote: | | Don't know about the best, but Tetsuya Mizuguchi (Rez, LUMINES!!!!!!!!!!!!!crack!!!!!, Child of Eden) is definitely up there. |
I dig his style, definitely. Not as huge a fan as you, I think (I find his games a bit hollow) but his games are always a trip to play through, and his command of pacing is amazing.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jeremy
Status: Offline
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 3031
$poons: 47.40
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
Short answer: none.
Which, if you allow me to elaborate, I see as a huge problem in the industry. Once upon a time, you had titles, franchises and even entire genres attached to outstanding designers: guys like Miyamoto, Carmack, Romero, Naka, Gunpei Yokoi, Spector, Ancel, to name a few. Recently prominent developers such as Mizuguchi (though he at least has some proper claims to fame), Pitchford, Suda 51, Cliffy B are good, but primarily have the limelight as excellent self promoters, rather than outstanding developers. There is no one that you could compare to a Nolan or a Fincher, for what they have done to games.
IMO, while Ueda is certainly talented, with only two ambitious but flawed titles under his belt in over a decade of work, he simply hasn't done enough to be considered great.
Currently, there is too much of a focus on the studio or on a 'design by committee' approach in game design. IMO, game design would do well to have someone calling the shots from the outset. There isn't enough scope for individuals to get their name out there and be attached to a title/franchise/genre. This is something that I think should change, particularly if the artistic side of gaming is to be properly purveyed.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Benza
Status: Offline
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
Posts: 14586
$poons: 119.20
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
I think it being muddy was more cause of that fucking godawful filter they put on the entire game. Seriously way to ruin an otherwise great looking game there...
Anyway, I think the best dev working in the industry would be Patrice Désilets, the man doesn't get enough credit but has been behind my faviourte franchise of the last gen and this. Creative Director behind Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, basically redefined how platformers worked for modern games. Then after he left the games spent the next two entries trying to recapture what made the first so good. Going into the modern gen gave us Assassins Creed the first one was mediocre I'll admit, but the core mechanics are still really solid. The second fixed up all the problems, and the third is fucking outstanding in all regards, then he left that series again and the fourth seems wanting...
Man... I wish he'd stick with a series all the way through.
I'd put him at a tie with Shinji Mikami, jesus christ he's like the one guy in Japan that's still putting out quality games. It's kind of sad. Final Fantasy has become a mediocre wankfest, RE 5 sucked, Capcom are determined to milk every cent out of theire fans with fighting games, Suda 51 has awesome ideas but feels like he can't connect them to good games, but Mikami man, fuck is there a game he's worked on that isn't awesome? I mean fuck half his resume of games redefined entire genres. Sometimes multiple genres in a single game.
Honourble mentions for "Great ideas, shitty execution" goes out to Suda 51 who I will buy every one of his game just to see what fucking nuts thing he does next, and Peter Moleneux cause fuck me if that guy doesn't reach for the fucking stars every time he makes something. I mean he very rarely gets their but you gotta admire the guys moxie.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pagan's Mind
Status: Offline
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Posts: 2900
$poons: 4.40
Location: Gold Coast
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
Suda 51 for me. He might not be the best game designer from a technical stand point because his games can feel a little unrefined and clunky. But I really love his style and humor particularly in No More Heroes and Shadows of the Damned. I still need to get my hands on Killer 7.
Shinji Mikami also comes to mind but he hasn't been too involved in game development lately. I have to mention Tetsuya Mizuguchi too. I think he is one of the most creative game developers today.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Benza
Status: Offline
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
Posts: 14586
$poons: 119.20
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Quote: | | There is no one that you could compare to a Nolan or a Fincher, for what they have done to games. |
To be fair, what have Nolan and Fincher actually done for movies?
I mean they make great films but they're hardly redefining the landscape of movies.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
admeister
Is Vita, Is Good.
Status: Offline
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 13917
$poons: 982.80
Location: Melbourne
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
Suda isn't really a designer, he's a director. If we're going by directors, then other than Suda, Motomu Toriyama is one of my favourites. He directed Final Fantasy X, X-2, FFXIII and is now working on FFXIII-2 (so, all of my favourite FF games). He also worked on FFVII and The World Ends With You. I think he has a great approach to game development.
_________________
"The first person to prove that cow's milk is drinkable was very, very thirsty." - Fact Sphere.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jarrod
Status: Offline
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 8284
$poons: 369.60
Location: Preston
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 2:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Jeremy wrote: | | Currently, there is too much of a focus on the studio or on a 'design by committee' approach in game design. IMO, game design would do well to have someone calling the shots from the outset. There isn't enough scope for individuals to get their name out there and be attached to a title/franchise/genre. This is something that I think should change, particularly if the artistic side of gaming is to be properly purveyed. |
But the reason this does not happen is because the entire content of a game cannot be attributed to one individual. Game development is, by nature, a hugely collaborative effort, and many of the best games, especially from the West, come from studios with a more flexible and communal approach to game design.
As noted by Square-Enix not too long back, this is also one of the biggest differences between traditional Japanese development and Western. In Japan there is usually a very strict hierarchy of management, and those at the top call all the shots. Problem with the game? They decide, not you. On the other end of the spectrum, Western studios often adopt a communal approach. There's still a hierarchy, and still leads and directors making the final call, but problems with the game during development or even game ideas themselves come from everybody on the team.
And honestly, that's what game development really is; a team effort. There are very, very few developers who could truly step in and push an entire hundred man team towards a single goal (Kojima and Miyamoto come to mind, but only because of their work experience). If developments this generation are anything to go by, the rigid structure of higher-ups calling the shots results incredibly slow development, whereas a communal focus gets things done quicker.
Unless I'm missing the point of what you're saying, I simply don't think it's possible or fair to attribute an individual to the entirety of a game. I do think more members of the team should be rewarded with publicity though, and this is something we're seeing a lot more now days which is great.
| Pagan's Mind wrote: | | Suda 51 for me. He might not be the best game designer from a technical stand point because his games can feel a little unrefined and clunky. But I really love his style and humor particularly in No More Heroes and Shadows of the Damned. I still need to get my hands on Killer 7. |
Suda is great, but I wish he'd go back to directing/designing. He hasn't properly done something since No More Heroes. Too busy being Mr. Big Shot CEO.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jeremy
Status: Offline
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 3031
$poons: 47.40
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
@Benza: it's not so much the point of what Fincher or Nolan have done for movies, but the fact that when their name is attached to the movie, you know it's going to be something. Once upon a time, if Miyamoto, Kojima or Carmack were attached to a game, you knew it was going to be something.
@Jarrod: I wasn't referring to it in such a direct sense. However, I feel that both approaches (communal and heirarchial) have shown their failings in recent times. Many of the past greats, IMO, are no longer 'with the times' while I'm sure a lot of the guys working at the sweatshops in 'western' systems have been chewed out by this system.
Given my understanding of organisations and how things get 'done' - coming from somewhere that if things don't get done, there's a lot at stake - I'm much more in favour or a hierarchial approach, if done properly. Furthermore, while I understand that development is a much more complicated process, I agree, more members of the team need to be rewarded with publicity for their achievements.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Benza
Status: Offline
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
Posts: 14586
$poons: 119.20
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Jeremy wrote: | | @Benza: it's not so much the point of what Fincher or Nolan have done for movies, but the fact that when their name is attached to the movie, you know it's going to be something. Once upon a time, if Miyamoto, Kojima or Carmack were attached to a game, you knew it was going to be something. |
Ah, then I've gotta disagree with you on both counts.
It's not like either of those guys, or anyone in the movie industry is really a guaranteed something.
I mean look at Fincher, he goes from Seven and Fight Club to Panic Room? I mean yeah I'm more excited for a Fincher movie then I would be another movie, but then he can still put out something like Benjamin Button. I don't think there's really any director in movies at the moment who has a flawless record and they're always able to fuck up.
But by the same token there are deffintly game directors who leave a defeinite stamp on there games and you can take there involvement with a title as a reasonable assurance of quality. It might not be the old guard cause like you said they've seem to have lost the plot. But someone like Cliffy B or Shinji Mikami, you say they're only well known for promoting themselves but I've gotta disagree, if the games they put out sucked then no matter what they do it wouldn't mean shit. Cliffy B, love him or hate him has pretty fucking amazing resume, the Gears games are fantastic, the unreal series isn't one I'm too into but I'm sure Denny will be able to sing their praises and fucking Jazz Jackrabbit man? He made that shit when he was 19 That game was the shit. Same with Shinji Mikami, I mean Resident Evil, Resident Evil 4, Devil May Cry, Vanquish, God Hand? Those are all amazing games without even touching on how much of an influence those games have had on games as a whole. I'd also include someone like Michelle Ancell in a list of serious heavy weight directors. Their games are consistently something special and yeah they don't have perfect records I would easily put them on the same level as Fincher or Nolan (Well above Nolan but that's a different discussion, that guy's a fucking hack)
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jarrod
Status: Offline
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 8284
$poons: 369.60
Location: Preston
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
Shinji Mikami is one of those 'names' for me that when attached to a project I know I'm going to enjoy it. He is much what Jeremy is talking about as missing, especially given he directs and lead designs plenty of his big games. Kamiya is in a similar boat at the moment.
On the opposite end, Valve as a company evokes similar feelings from me. It's interesting. Stick Mikami/Kamiya's name on a project and I know their style and direction will make for an incredible title. Stick 'Valve' on something and I'm likely to feel the same way.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jeremy
Status: Offline
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 3031
$poons: 47.40
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 3:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
The question above was 'currently working'.
Having met (yes, I have met) the likes of Cliffy B, Randy Pitchford, Suda 51, to name a few, no one will deny their past nor their passion and ability for what they do. But in the case of Mikami, aside from Vanquish (which as much as I liked, should have had a bigger impact) hasn't done much directing/designing recently, while the same could be said of Cliffy B. I'll happily acknowledge credit where it's due, especially since guys like Mikami are among my faves, but if we're talking about who is leading the pack today? Well, I can scratch my nuts till they're raw but no one comes to mind...
EDIT: Though yes, I'd love to see more of the earlier day Mikami-type characters emerge in game design... That is, IMO, an ideal situation for the gaming medium to be taken forward.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Benza
Status: Offline
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
Posts: 14586
$poons: 119.20
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Jeremy wrote: | | hasn't done much directing/designing recently, while the same could be said of Cliffy B. |
Gears of War 3 came out like... 3 months ago? The first single player story heavy DLC is set to be released in the next couple of weeks? Jesus man how recent do you want there latest stuff to be 
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mikezilla2
Status: Offline
Joined: 12 Jun 2007
Posts: 5237
$poons: 588.60
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
the qustion is just how much of cliffys input went in to said DLC ?
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Benza
Status: Offline
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
Posts: 14586
$poons: 119.20
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:05 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| mikezilla2 wrote: | | the qustion is just how much of cliffys input went in to said DLC ? |
He still put out a game in september, I think it's a little unfair to say he hasn't done anything recently.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jeremy
Status: Offline
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 3031
$poons: 47.40
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
Gears of What? I don't know such a game...
From my understanding and the presentations at E3 this year, Cliffy's role wasn't as direct as it has been in the past... one of those situations where other guys at Epic were being given a go to finish things off, while Cliffy was being wheeled out to present it. And if we're talking game design, well, I don't consider Gears of War to be exemplary.
With all due respect, of course, Cliffy B is a fantastic guy to talk to about games. He's got a really straight-forward and passionate way of approaching things. And he likes Tim Tams 
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Benza
Status: Offline
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
Posts: 14586
$poons: 119.20
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Quote: | | one of those situations where other guys at Epic were being given a go to finish things off, while Cliffy was being wheeled out to present it. |
Ah ok fair enough then, also isn't Shinji Mikami starting up a new studio with Bethesda or something? I seem to remember hearing something about that.
As far as looking at the next big designers, I think we're kind of in a transitional period at the moment. Alot of the old guard (Miaymoto, etc) are just. Kind of fucking losing the plot, but there are a hell of a lot of new guys comming in doing awesome stuff but they're not at the point where they really have the recognition to get the budgets to do really big stuff.
I mean you've got guys like Tom Fulp, Edmund McMillen, Dan Palladin, even complete cockbites like Johnathon Blow. Putting out some serious fucking quality products with tiny budgets. In 10 years or so I think we're going to see guys like that doing pretty big things (Well maybe not Fulp, that guys gotta be loaded allready)
The quality of games being put out on stuff like x-box arcade is just fucking mind blowing. And I'd say easily reaches the quality of the early stuff put out by game designers that have gotten huge these days.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jeremy
Status: Offline
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 3031
$poons: 47.40
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
Hey, I could have misunderstood and be talking out of my ass? Will happily retract if I'm wrong.
And yes, I heard the same with Mikami... but I don't think any projects from it have been announced yet.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jarrod
Status: Offline
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 8284
$poons: 369.60
Location: Preston
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
After Vanquish Mikami went and formed a new studio called Tango, and they're currently owned by Zenimax (so yeah, Bethesda). Whatever game he's working on hasn't been announced.
I'd also like to note Suda as one of those 'names' that arguably gets more credit than he deserves. Shadows of the Damned is a prime example. EA's whole marketing push was calling it a 'Suda51 Trip'. They tried to cash in on his niche status (which was a stupid idea for obvious reasons) and market the game as his own. Same for Mikami. Both contributed to the project, but neither was the lead director. Much of Shadows of the Damned's quality is a product of Massimo Guarini lead direction. But hey, who is talking about him? Nobody. It's all Suda.
Granted, nobody is talking about Shadows either, because you're all tasteless and wont buy awesome games.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Benza
Status: Offline
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
Posts: 14586
$poons: 119.20
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Jarrod wrote: |
Granted, nobody is talking about Shadows either, because you're all tasteless and wont buy awesome games. |
To be fair it's one of those games that would help a hell of a lot if more places would stock it. Had it pre-orderd at game and they called me a week before it got releaed to say they weren't getting it. The guys there were left with a shit load of Shadow of the dammed posters they had to give away with the game that they weren't stocking the game for. (Got a poster and the game from JB for the record)
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JackSlack
Status: Offline
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 1175
$poons: 244.60
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
I'm finding it really interesting following along here; I'd argue that most of the names getting thrown about would be described (in Scott McCloud's quartet as animists (Mikami definitely, Désiletsm, Cliffy B) and formalists (Suda 51, Hocking, Ueda). I don't even know if gaming has enough history to have classicism. (Mind you, Cage is a classicist. He's just a classicist of film.) Are there any iconoclasts in there?
Also, I think there's a definite animist leaning in the expressions people have given here. A lot of love to the masters of the form, the ones who can make the trappings fall away and leave pure experience. I can dig that, even if I tend to be more into the formalists.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jarrod
Status: Offline
Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 8284
$poons: 369.60
Location: Preston
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
EA's fault. They gave up on the game and sent it to die. Assholes.
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Benza
Status: Offline
Joined: 11 Mar 2008
Posts: 14586
$poons: 119.20
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
|
|
| Quote: | | Are there any iconoclasts in there? |
I'd put some indie designers into iconoclasts, or atleast, they think of themselves as it. Johanthon Blow I imagine would think of himself like this, using games to explore some kind of intrinsic truth about himself. Unfotunatley he gave us Braid which is the single most wanky fuck fest of a game ever made.(Also fucking lol at putting Frank Cho as a claccisit? The mans a cheescake pinup artist for gods sake)
Also I'd put someone like Ueda and maybe That Games Company guys as classicists.
I think the reason most people will tend to lean towards the Animist side of things is that games are interactive. At the end of the day all the beauty and wonder isn't really going to mean shit if the game plays like arse. Animists are the most likely to focus on that kind of thing./
_________________
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
