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Benza
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 Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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man I don't give a shit abotu FPS games anymore, that's the most amazing gif ever
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adam_91vn
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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There is a better version of that gif around 
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Frozencry
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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There is a video too. And it's awesome.
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Benza
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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WHY IS NO ONE POSTING THESE THINGS!
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Jarrod
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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I too would be partial to sampling this video.
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PixieGirl
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Jarrod wrote: | | This debate between PixieGirl and everyone else is the most blatant Apples Vs. Oranges argument I've seen on this forum in some time. |
In what way is it Apples vs. Oranges??
I judge games based on todays standards rather than yesterdays standards because we're IN this standard, and so it makes the most sense to judge them based on what people enjoy today. I don't get this idea that because something is old we have to "cut it some slack" when we play it; games aren't going to get offended, they are forms of entertainment that get upgraded upon very quickly, and quickly become obsolete simply because they require input from the people playing them rather than being something you just sit back and take in. I have no doubt that in 10 years if I'm still playing games I'll play through some of my favorite game series from this era and think, how did I ever enjoy these so much?
That's why the future of gaming excites me so much, because its constantly evolving, and things get left in the dust very quickly in my opinion. I consider that a great thing, and I don't think being stuck in the past helps this medium.
| GooberMan wrote: | | Not that I entirely get the point of the supposed schism. If Casablanca were released today instead of in 1941, it wouldn't get a second look. Despite the fact that it's still a very enjoyable movie and representative of an era of filmmaking that's been long since left behind. |
Now i've never actually seen Casablanca, and I'm not a big film fan, but isnt the simple fact that it wouldn't get a second look (if thats true) actually say something about its quality compared what we've come to expect from modern films? Because to me, it says a lot when thats the case.
and maybe then, the fact people enjoy it is based upon what it represents for the era and is not based on its own merits? Personally if people are judging films (or games) that way I don't think their opinions on it have much worth.
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Benza
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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The apples and oranges thing comes from the fact that they're barley even the same genre. It's kind of like comparing F-zero X to Gran Turismo. Sure they're both racing games but they're aiming to do two very different things.
The whole thread is more about lamenting the death of the arcade fps games then bashing the new ones. New games definitely have their place but it shouldn't come at the expense of arcade shooters like Quake, UT etc.
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Jarrod
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| PixieGirl wrote: | | In what way is it Apples vs. Oranges?? |
Denny grew up eating apples. Man, he loved apples. He loved the crunchy texture, the shiny skin, the sweet and sour flavours. Apples were so damn delicious to him, and he ate them the time. Unsurprisingly, it was also the only fruit sold in his area.
Then one day people imported some oranges. Oranges! He tasted the oranges, and he liked them. Tasty, for sure, and other people noticed too. Lots of people started eating oranges along with apples to try this new flavour. Hell, some people who never liked apples to begin with started eating fruit because of oranges!
But Denny still loved apples more. He thought they tasted better. He liked the crunchy texture over the squishy, messy eating of oranges. He liked the smooth finish, not the bumpy thick skin you couldn't really eat. He also liked the mix of sweet and sour in apples, and thought oranges as a whole were a bit too sweet.
Essentially what you've been arguing is that oranges are an evolution of apples, failing to to see that they're completely different. All the reasons you've given as to why you enjoy specific types of games more than other types of games are completely valid, but only form a personal, subjective opinion. Games have evolved and changed to include new things and news means of presentation that they didn't once have, and you've gravitated towards this. These are your oranges, and you think they taste better than apples.
It's the idea that these oranges are objectively superior evolutions to apples, and that anybody who likes apples are subjected to rose tinted glasses, that comes across as so asinine and silly, and misses the entire point of the argument Denny, myself and others have been making. Everybody wants goddamn oranges these days, but no matter what they offer they're not a blanket replacement for what apples offer. Nobody wants to offer apples anymore, despite apples offering a completely different flavour and experience to oranges.
It doesn't need to be so black and white, with one better than the other. All it is about style and taste. Would you say Mario Kart and Gran Turismo are the same? Super Smash Bros. and Tekken? Flight Simulator and Rogue Squadron? Elder Scrolls and PlaneScape: Torment? These cinematic, scripted story focused movie games offer their own unique experience that does not replace the wealth of different experiences that can be found in an entire genre.
Simply put, people miss a style of game that is validated by its own existence. It is something unlike everything else. You don't have to like it, but people 'cut it some slack' because it offers something different to most of what is available on the market. You might look at these games and go "Well the graphics are ass, the presentation blows, there's no story to speak of, or relatable characters, and no reason for me to feel engaged.". The opposing argument would be "Modern games are overly hand holdy, scripted and streamline, lacking momentum and athletic controlled gameplay". Apples and oranges. We can have both, but people get cranky when one saturates the market.
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GooberMan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| PixieGirl wrote: | | Now i've never actually seen Casablanca, and I'm not a big film fan, but isnt the simple fact that it wouldn't get a second look (if thats true) actually say something about its quality compared what we've come to expect from modern films? |
Nope. That brand of high melodrama that skirted around the Hays Code wouldn't get bankrolled by any of the major production studios, which means that it'd be done indie style and probably be relegated to the arthouse as some kind of ironic sentimental look at society's tastes and how they shift over time. Which sounds like complete and utter BS, but that's the climate that a movie like that would be made in these days.
Take Some Like It Hot as another example. It's a screwball comedy, which is pretty much seen as outdated and irrelevant these days (the only modern screwball that comes to mind is the Coen Brother's Hudsucker Proxy and that tanked at the box office). In its day, it helped smash apart the strangehold that the Hays Code had on Hollywood movies. It blatantly ignored it, got distribution anyway, and became a massive hit. So historically, it's important there. But watching it these days? I'd like someone to provide me a valid counterexample to the claim of "Funniest American-made movie of all time." Being a screwball, you can call it naive compared to later gender-bending comedies such as La Cage aux Folles (remade almost 20 years later in America) and The Adventures of Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, but all it does is add to the charm. Genuine chemistry between the cast, fantastic dialogue, ingenious plotting in places, and that final scene. The movie wouldn't get made these days, but to dismiss it because the film industry moved on from that style of film making 50 years ago? You can only start calling people naive for taking that stance.
And ultimately, that's the same deal with old games. They don't make Castlevania games like they used to, but you'd be hard pressed to find someone who could make an objective and believable case that Lords of Shadow is a superior game to some outdated 2D platformer from 15 years prior. Or, as an exercise, try arguing as to whether Tetris or Bejewelled is the better game. The industry has (mostly) moved on from making those types of games. That doesn't make them irrelevant in the modern climate.
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PixieGirl
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Jarrod your last post is brilliant, I love the way you worded it. I don't think everyone who prefers these type of games are wearing rose tinted glasses but I think there is a lot of that involved when it comes to a lot of peoples interest in retro gaming.
I might have some kind of blind spot with all this, and you guys have given good reasons for what you like. I don't really get it, but I think its fair enough.
But I have a bit of a kneejerk reaction to peoples love of retro gaming because a lot of the time people can't give solid reasons like you have done as to why these games are better than modern releases. A lot of the time people hold a game up high and praise it because it was "amazing for its time". And they say that, like it actually means something. My point is, it doesnt. Apart from making it an interesting part of gaming history, the sentence "amazing for its time" is in itself a negative point towards the game because it is literally saying that a game used to be good, but might not be now. and it just annoys me for some reason when people say that and then list their chosen game as the best game ever made. It's like they are agreeing with me and then disregarding that because of their nostalgia. It's nonsensicle to me, and I suppose I don't understand it because its something ive never felt about anything. It's obvious this isnt the mindset of anyone in this thread, but I think its a very common mindset and thats why I don't really like nostalgia. Because to me, it makes no sense, and I like things to make sense or I get irritable 
But looking over the posts again I understand the points you are all making. Its just that I play a game like Deus Ex and try my hardest to find even one redeeming quality about the actual gameplay and am just completely unable to, then I go online and see people praise it like its the the second coming. Its that kind of thing that makes me feel theres something else a little deeper down about peoples love for these games that is not about the games mechanics but more about their personal history with it, or in some cases with younger gamers, their desire to be different and non-mainstream.
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Frozencry
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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There are definitely some games where regardless of the nostalgia, you can't deny they have aged mechanics. When I got my copy of ICO/SOTC from Sony and slid it into my PS3 for example, I was quite taken back by how clunky and annoying the controls and camera felt. These two games are some of my favourite games of all time, and I appreciate the things they do really well, but good God the camera and controls really do suck balls, especially 5/10 years on.
These other games that we talk about though? They're pretty amazing. I mean sure, the depth of it might not be able to be seen straight out, but what they do, they do extremely well and still hold up well today. And to take away such a beautifully designed mechanic and genre style is really saddening especially for fans of the series such as myself. I love my oranges a lot of the time, but I still want some apples as they're always my favourite.
And even I can admit, the original Deus Ex is a clunky as hell turd. It's hard to play that nowadays.
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mikezilla2
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Denny wrote: |
And even I can admit, the original Deus Ex is a clunky as hell turd. It's hard to play that nowadays. |
have you finished it yet 
mind you i only played shadow in like 2007 i think for what ever reason it feels the same to me as it ever did 
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Frozencry
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Nope. My backlog is moving about as fast as London traffic at peak hour right now so it'll be a while before I get close to finishing the original Deus Ex.
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sobriquet835
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| PixieGirl wrote: |
| GooberMan wrote: | | Not that I entirely get the point of the supposed schism. If Casablanca were released today instead of in 1941, it wouldn't get a second look. Despite the fact that it's still a very enjoyable movie and representative of an era of filmmaking that's been long since left behind. |
Now i've never actually seen Casablanca, and I'm not a big film fan, but isnt the simple fact that it wouldn't get a second look (if thats true) actually say something about its quality compared what we've come to expect from modern films? Because to me, it says a lot when thats the case.
and maybe then, the fact people enjoy it is based upon what it represents for the era and is not based on its own merits? Personally if people are judging films (or games) that way I don't think their opinions on it have much worth. |
Depends on what you mean by quality. If you think something has to be new to be quality, then I guess to you Casablanca is past it's used by date. However, those of us who couldn't give 2 fucks how old something is, and enjoy things for what they are, that is one high quality movie. It's all about context.
EDIT: Eh, all this shit is irrelevant. My point has been made by others (and put much better to boot).
Last edited by sobriquet835 on Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total
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PixieGirl
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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I have not once said that because something is old it is automatically of bad quality, I have given reasons that I think types of media become dated as we learn and improve, meaning I believe there can often be a correlation between age and a lack of quality when it comes to certain types of entertainment, mainly games.
My argument isnt "old = bad."
If you're going to argue against my posts at least read through them properly... 
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Benza
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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I'll third Deus Ex being shit. I've had my mate rave about it at me for years and tried it recently and it kind of blows.
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Nietzsche
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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I still like Mario 3 and Super Mario World over any and all platformers done today. Kind of a different argument as they don't make much more 2d platformers any more but I wonder if it's due to nostalgia, my mastery of the mechanics or it just is that good.
Gowing up as a console gamer my experiences of FPS is extremely limited. Even then when I did get into FPS and specifically PC one's I stuck to the multiplayer so I have no dog in this race. I did play some campaigns though, mainly a heap in WW2 genre. I kind of like the way SP campaigns evolved. I remember playing through these epic campaigns that literally took tens of hours and I wonder now how much of it was filler. Also some of the mechanics like map exploration and hard as ball's puzzling I have no interest in especially these days.
Saying that you don't get the same advancement these day's. The difference between Medal of Honor on PS1 and the first game I ever brought with my own money (MoH: Frontlines) is mind-shattering. In the last few years no shooter has completely blown me away since CoD4. There are some that have great shooting, some that I have enjoyed immensely but none that thrill me on that base level. SP these days are just a quick diversion with hopefully decent characters and cool map design.
MP is a completely different argument. Shooting another guy in the face has not evolved that dramatically. Sure there are distractions but the basic skills that I developed in UT are basically the same as when I play BF3 or CoD. I don't bunny hop as much or collect power up's but I think the same principles apply. Shame about map design getting more complicated though as some of the symmetrical simple maps are still some of my most favorite maps.
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Benza
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Nietzsche wrote: | | Kind of a different argument as they don't make much more 2d platformers any more |
What world are you living in?
Megaman 9, Super Meat Boy, Contra Hard Coprs, Explsion Man, Mrs Explsion Man, Braid, Limbo, etc etc. Hell Sonic Generations just came out and half that game is pure 2D platforming.
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Gamesta
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| Benza wrote: | The apples and oranges thing comes from the fact that they're barley even the same genre. It's kind of like comparing F-zero X to Gran Turismo. Sure they're both racing games but they're aiming to do two very different things.
The whole thread is more about lamenting the death of the arcade fps games then bashing the new ones. New games definitely have their place but it shouldn't come at the expense of arcade shooters like Quake, UT etc. |
Exactly. I don't want FPS's the way they are now to die but it would be nice to have some old arcade style FPS's every now and then.
Kind of like how I get sick of dramatic games and go to stupid games like Saints Row.
It just gets boring playing the same kinds of games all the time.
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ZNMS
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:28 am Post subject: |
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If Quake was done today, it would be called Duke Nukem Forever.
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mikezilla2
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| Benza wrote: | | I'll third Deus Ex being ****. I've had my mate rave about it at me for years and tried it recently and it kind of blows. |
why do you suppose everyone else raves about it ?
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GooberMan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:15 am Post subject: |
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Everyone made fun of the sniper rifle mechanic even when it was new. Some critics at the time noted that it probably focuses on being real too much. I haven't loaded it up in about 7 years, but that's where I'd start looking to find what new players are complaining about.
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sobriquet835
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ZNMS wrote: | | If Quake was done 5 years ago, it would be called Duke Nukem Forever. |
FTFY.
My opinion, if Quake was done today, it would have graphics and sound like RAGE (You know, the good bits of RAGE), but it would also have the freedom of movement that makes it a Quake game. I think we could get behind that.
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Jarrod
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Benza wrote: | What world are you living in?
Megaman 9, Super Meat Boy, Contra Hard Coprs, Explsion Man, Mrs Explsion Man, Braid, Limbo, etc etc. Hell Sonic Generations just came out and half that game is pure 2D platforming. |
This generation has seen an incredible resurgence in 2D platformers, and good ones too. I love it.
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Benza
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
why do you suppose everyone else raves about it ? |
Well I'm always told it's amazing with it's freedom of choice etc Letting you choose how to approach the game and do it anyway you want.
In practice that basically comes down to "If you're not using the shitty stealth mechanics you're playing the game wrong" Wich doesn't really equate to freedom of choice to me. The gun play is lousy, the graphics are hilariously bad, (I was shocked to find out it came out in 2000 after playing it cause I'd assumed it had come out in like 1994) the stealth design is inexact and tediuous.
It's a game with good ideas and crappy execution.
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