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barbz89
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 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Curse you Cian. You just cost me 40 bucks!!!
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Jarrod
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| GooberMan wrote: | O RLY? Any attempt from gamers to legitimise these skill testers is going to be long, painful, and utterly pointless.
The problem is that games themselves are a superficial way of using an interactive medium. Thoroughly enjoyable superficial uses, but even the most pretentious indie game hasn't been more than a carnival side show thus far. If you can't see that for a paint splash, then that's not my problem. I'll just keep working on my own uses of an interactive medium that will illustrate exactly what I mean. |
I suppose, for me, I simply disagree with the notion that a piece of interactive entertainment with objectives and goals, that you can 'win' as you say, discredits it as an art form. I can appreciate someone using that as an argument against the classification of video games as an art form, as I can see exactly where they are coming from, but that is why I argued there is a lot of subjectivity to what defines something as 'art'.
But I do agree that the unique aspects of interactive entertainment need to be explored more thoroughly in order for the medium to reach greater artistic heights. As it is, 'art' in video games is really a product of artistic qualities found in other mediums, such as writing, music, film, narrative, and what have you. Often these 'art games' are indeed quite artistic visually, but fail to capitalise on interactivity, which is really the absolute of video games. There's something off about calling a video game art when those artistic merits come from elements shared by other mediums, and not the defining feature of this particular one.
As a side note, this is why I really loved Silent Hill: Shattered Memories. Not so much because it was an interactive masterpiece (far from it, and quite flawed), but because it's story and narrative were penned in such a way that the impact of the experience would be lost if it were presented in any other medium. The game had a message and a point, and played heavily on the concept of player attachment to a controllable protagonist, and wove this into the story and twists. I might be looking too far into it, and it might have been a fluke, but the way it works and the message it sends is simply marvellous.
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jprockbelly
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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If I can just throw in my 2 cents, I think the term 'win' is a bit misleading.
Do you really âwinâ a modern day game? For some games the answer is undoubtable yes. Any game with a P vs. P mode will allow you to win by outperforming your opponent. Any game where you accrue a score can also be turned interpreted as winning, when your score is higher than some arbitrary predefined number.
However, can you win a game like Gears of War*? You can complete it successfully by progressing through the predefined narrative until it is finished. But itâs not really âwinningâ. You donât complete the game any better or worse than another person, you just get to the end.
If I donât get to the end of a game I can still appreciate it. I can enjoy the music, marvel at the images, sculpture and motion with no regard for progression or narrative. There is a lot to enjoy in modern games aside from any notion of winning or even completing them.
*game picked at random to illustrate point, choose any modern narrative based game.
edit: As an side I'm a fan of expanding on what we now call 'gaming'. Bejeweled, Tetris and Angry Birds are "Video Games", indicating that the aim is to win. Most modern titles (inc SoTC and the like) should be "Human Controlled Narrative Based Interactive Media" or some such wanky thing.
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Last edited by jprockbelly on Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total
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Benza
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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I would still call beating Gears of War winning, simply because you can lose (Die) Games don't need to be in direct competition with another person to win. Those little puzzles where you have to guide a ball bearing through a maze aren't direct competitions with other people or against anything in particular but completing it is still winning.
Someone that sucks at Gears of War and is unable to beat it in effect has lost at the game.
[edit]
To respond to your edit.
How is completing a level of Angry Birds to progress to a different area any different mechanically to beating a collosus in SOTC to progress to the next area? It simply wraps a story around the game mechanic.
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Last edited by Benza on Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total
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jprockbelly
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Benza wrote: | | Someone that sucks at Gears of War and is unable to beat it in effect has lost at the game. |
So if someone is unable to finish reading a book have they "lost at that book".
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Benza
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| jprockbelly wrote: | | Benza wrote: | | Someone that sucks at Gears of War and is unable to beat it in effect has lost at the game. |
So if someone is unable to finish reading a book have they "lost at that book". |
If you didn't finish reading a book, then that's a judgement on the narrative of the book and the quality of it's writing. I for example didn't finish the lord of the rings series because those books are impenetrable cluster fucks of inane bullshit.
Compare that to say playing a game, I never finished Starfox Adventure, not through any lack of love for the game or the narrative it was telling (I actually dug the fuck out of that game) but because I simply couldn't beat that fucking pterodactyl bit. I would have liked to see the ending of that game but couldn't. If I want to see the ending of a book nothings stopping me from reading the rest of it.
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jprockbelly
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Benza wrote: | | Compare that to say playing a game, I never finished Starfox Adventure, not through any lack of love for the game or the narrative it was telling (I actually dug the **** out of that game) but because I simply couldn't beat that **** pterodactyl bit. I would have liked to see the ending of that game but couldn't. |
So it would be fair to say that you really enjoyed the game regardless of not completing it? This is kind of my point. There is a whole lot to enjoy in a game before you worry about âwinningâ or even finishing it.
| Benza wrote: | | If I want to see the ending of a book nothings stopping me from reading the rest of it. |
Well your disinclination to enjoy it stopped you the first time 
In both cases I'm sure several hours dedication would be all that is required for you to complete either.
[Edit responding to your edit responding to my edit  ]
In response to the Angry Birds comment I'll borrow some nomenclature from Goober. All games use the same artform, it is just up to the consumer to decide if they are actually art.
By analogy, if Lord of the Rings is litarary art, then Angry Birds is the equivalent of The Da Vinci Code.
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Benza
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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I put several hours of dedication into that fucking mission.... -_- stupid fucking pterodactyl level....
I think the difference is one is an indication of the quality of the story and the 'art' that's being presented. The other is an arbitrary test of reflexes. That at times (Again, like that fucking pterodactyl level) can come out of no where.
I guess it's a difference of, with lord of the rings I felt that the book had failed to keep me entertained, with starfox I felt that I had failed to beat the game.
And yeah I still enjoyed the game, but if something is being art then it has to be more then just enjoyable.
[edit]
to respond to your edit to respond to my eidt to respond to your edit.
Then if it's up to the user to decide what is art and what isn't, then you can't really just up and give them a different name. I mean to use your example Lord of the Rings is a book, So is is The DaVinci Code. One sucks and... well the other still kind of sucks but you see my point. You don't divide books into different categories based on how good they are, they're just books.
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jprockbelly
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Benza wrote: | | I guess it's a difference of, with lord of the rings I felt that the book had failed to keep me entertained, with starfox I felt that I had failed to beat the game. |
This is a solid gold comment. I think you have nailed a significant point here.
I could easily rephrase this to be " with lord of the rings I felt I failed to understand the book, with starfox the I felt the devs failed to build a game I could prpgress through". Why is the involvment with a game a negative reflection on you, yet poor writting the fault of the author?
| Benza wrote: | | And yeah I still enjoyed the game, but if something is being art then it has to be more then just enjoyable. |
What does it have to be?
edit:
| Quote: | | Then if it's up to the user to decide what is art and what isn't, then you can't really just up and give them a different name. |
Simply to avoid the "you can't win at art" argument. Calling things games implies that winning is a central element. I would argue that this is no longer true with many games.
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Benza
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Why is the involvment with a game a negative reflection on you, yet poor writting the fault of the author? |
I think it was cause it wasn't so much a lack of understanding with LOTR, it was just not very interesting. I understood it perfectly, I just didn't give a shit about what Tolkien was saying (That's great that you imagined this world in such detail that you spent 10 pages telling me about a path through some trees, I really don't give a shit though) It's not a reflection of my inabiltiy, it's a reflection of my taste.
I didn't like the book, it failed to engage me.
I can deal with the fact that my tastes don't match up to other peoples, but with Starfox it wasn't a matter of taste it was a matter of skill. It's the same as my inability to Shoryuken - FADC - Ultra in SF 4.
It's something I actively want but can't have, compared to something I could quiet easily have but don't want.
| Quote: | | What does it have to be? |
If enjoyment is all you need then blowjobs are the greatest form of art in the world and all other art is irrelevant. Art can't just be about enjoyment, there is art that you deffintly don't enjoy. Films like Requium for a Dream or Kids, they're not movies that you enjoy but they're still amazing pieces of film. And I'd defiantly call them art. On the other hand I greatly enjoy watching Backdoor Milfs 9, but I would struggle to justify Nina Heartleys ability to be double penetrated by two muscular black dudes as art.
I know this will sound wanky, but for me to consider something to be art, it's like the artist put some of there soul into the work. That's why something like the roof of the Sistine chapel, in spite of the fact that it was a begrudging commission that the artist hated is still 'art' because he poured 4 years of his life into that fucking roof.... and fuck now I sound like a pretentious art wanker. Happy now
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jprockbelly
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Benza wrote: | | It's not a reflection of my inabiltiy, it's a reflection of my taste. |
 so sorry for that
| Quote: | I can deal with the fact that my tastes don't match up to other peoples, but with Starfox it wasn't a matter of taste it was a matter of skill. It's the same as my inability to Shoryuken - FADC - Ultra in SF 4.
It's something I actively want but can't have, compared to something I could quiet easily have but don't want. |
Yep this is a good point. I think that there is effort in consuming all types of media. But where books and paintings are mental (emotional?)effort, gameing is physical effort (or at least dexterity). However I still don't think that winning is the correct term for what is essentially learning a new skill.
| Quote: | | On the other hand I greatly enjoy watching Backdoor Milfs 9, but I would struggle to justify Nina Heartleys ability to be double penetrated by two muscular black dudes as art. |
Is it not art cos your racist?
But seriously porno is art, its just a fringe form art.... ok maybe BDM9 isn't art but you know what I mean.
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Benza
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | opps, I just realised what I wrote was unintentionally insulting |
Haha, I seriously didn't think of that until you pointed it out
I was more pointing out that games have a test aspect that is completely separate to effort. It would be like reading your faviourte book, but continually having to answer quizes unrelated to the story to let you continue.
Going back to street fighter to (I know that's a more traditional 'game but I'm just trying to illustrate the effort vs testing thing) My mate Tommy lives for that game. Plays it religiously, knows all the combos, can FADC like a pro, knows what's safe/unsafe knows all that shit. He puts in a fucking shitload of effort to that game.
I don't. Blazblue is my game, I struggle with basic combos in SF, I can't FADC, I can't really do that much at all.
We played the other night and I won 9 out of 10 games, him sticking with his Evil Ryu main, me changing characters every match. The effort he put in didn't matter, when it came to the test part he failed.
| Quote: | | Is it not art cos your racist? |
For sure, if she was getting reemed by white guys. Put that shit in the lourve
[edit]RE: Porno being art. I think the distinction is Erotica vs Porno. Erotica being something made with a point that also titilates. Porno being Barley Legal Gaping Anal #7
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jprockbelly
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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Yep, I totally see where you are coming from and think this is totally valid. I still say that the test is there with traditional art, it's just a mental test not a physical one.
For example I read Crime and Punishment once. I didn't really get a lot of it, even though I tried hard, and reread lots of sections. But I can't honestly blame dostoievski just becuase I didn't understand his book. It was at least partly my inability to sufficently interact with the media. Similarly I have seen lots of famous paintings that I thought were garbage (I'm looking at you picasso).
| Quote: | | Porno being art. I think the distinction is Erotica vs Porno. Erotica being something made with a point that also titilates. Porno being Barley Legal Gaping Anal #7 |
We come back to the issue of naming things! Erotica vs porn, games vs interactive-media. Is a game with point art, but one which is purely competative is not? 
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David No.1
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Just got my copy today in the mail! Now... to continue playing Dark Souls or to play some ICO.
| Pagan's Mind wrote: | | grim-one wrote: | | OropherX wrote: | | Just got this in the mail this morning =D |
Me too  |
Me three . |
I can now say... Me four!
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benspyda
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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Man I forgot how tough some of those colossus get. Oh but so satisfying when you get that winning stab.
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fatpizza
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Still waiting on my copy from OzGameShop. Grumble, grumble...
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Banefire
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 2:26 am Post subject: |
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I've really enjoyed the views mentioned above regarding wether the use of 'art' is an appropriate term to be used to describe video games.
We live in a world full of many and varied works of art. This is a commonly known 'fact'. The most famous are generally quite old and full of value.
Da Vinci is known as a great artist and inventor amoung other things and his sketches of his inventions and his beautiful paintings are considered to be valuable art as much as a shining example of what wonders the human mind can imagine .
Beethoven composed and performed his symphonies. Thes too are considered to be priceless works of art.
Are not games today products of combining not just these 2 mediums (illustrations - concept art/graphic art, music - original soundtracks, atmostheric scores etc) as well as the skills of voice actors and writers (many books from the past are considered 'works of art') So why should video games be excluded?
Because couldnt they in fact be considered as even more deserving of the label 'art' because they are the combination of many different works of art fitting together so well?
Gooberman's 1st comment finished with the statement that despite a certain vocal group calling games art, the rest of the world would sit back and laugh at the comparison . Im sure if Beethovan and Da Vinci were alive today they would be in awe of what game designers or 'artists' are creating, and would be keen to create something as well.
Perhaps its time we stopped feeling so ashamed of our appreciation of the efforts that go into creating our modern works of art?
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Benza
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Are not games today products of combining not just these 2 mediums (illustrations - concept art/graphic art, music - original soundtracks, atmostheric scores etc) as well as the skills of voice actors and writers (many books from the past are considered 'works of art') So why should video games be excluded? |
A medium doesn't qualify something as art.
Are Beethoven symphonys art? Sure
Is last Friday Night by Kate Perry art? dear god no.
They're the same medium though.
A simple combination of mediums that have expressed artistic sensibilities doesn't mean the final product is art. Even if the parts that go into it are amazing.
I mean you list what a game combines of mediums, you could also argue the same for say Transformers 2.
| Quote: | | Because couldnt they in fact be considered as even more deserving of the label 'art' because they are the combination of many different works of art fitting together so well? |
Something being art isn't maths. You can't go "Well this is art, and that is art so if we put them together it's more art" It's more about what the finished product achieves.
I don't think anyone here is saying that games can't be art. More that they aren't yet. And more specifically as long as they rely on the concept of winning and losing that they'll never really achieve what they could be.
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jprockbelly
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:44 am Post subject: |
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I gurantee that future generations will look back at games that are being made now and declare them art.
Just as the people who created this
still called this art.
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Banefire
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 9:52 am Post subject: |
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my point exactly. but do we have to be dead and have our decendants finally declare games like Shadow of the Colosus art? Or is that not for our generation to decide?
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grim-one
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| Wikipedia on Art wrote: | | Traditionally, the term art was used to refer to any skill or mastery. This conception changed during the Romantic period, when art came to be seen as "a special faculty of the human mind to be classified with religion and science". Generally, art is made with the intention of stimulating thoughts and emotions. |
I say games are Art by both definitions there.
They can definitely be a masterful work, technically or creatively. Any game with ground breaking technology or style meets this criteria.
They can also affect your emotions: triumph, fear, sadness, anger, loneliness, guilt, grief, frustration, panic, amusement and regret are some that come to mind. One of the most emotional games I can think of is Heavy Rain, it's not the greatest game but it has a huge range of emotions (for me at least). Even a more common style of game like Doom qualifies, it's got suspense, fear, panic and triumph.
Just because Stuffy Old Art Critics (their official titles) don't accept them as art yet, doesn't mean we can't. Sure they're not all great master works like Beethoven or Picasso. Widespread popularity doesn't make art though. A kid's drawing can be art to someone.
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Banefire
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:07 am Post subject: |
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oh and Benza gooberman said that games will 'never' be art.So yes at least some have that view.
And yes i look forward to what games are going to evolve into. And when society evolves to the state that the artistic talent that go into games is not marginalised as being 'oh that? its just a game' mentality.
Nice posts guys i love talking about this
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jprockbelly
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| grim-one wrote: | | Just because Stuffy Old Art Critics (their official titles) don't accept them as art yet, doesn't mean we can't. |
Personally I think that games becoming art will follow the same path as film.
Early film was not considered art (at the time), especially by the current artistic critics who had formed their idea about what art was long before they ever saw film. âMoving picturesâ were considered a gimmick, the uneducated masses were impressed, but what did they know. Then they all died and a new lot of critics came along, people who had grown up with film, and they declared that it was art.
Similarly, in about 50 years there will be very few people who are older than video games. You and I will be (respected?) elderly statesmen, sitting back in our libraries smoking cigars, sipping port and telling our many, many grand children about how we used to actually own an original copy of SoTC (in the future this will be worth over $5 billon dollars, or the average annual wage of a McDonalds night manager).
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Benza
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| jprockbelly wrote: | | I gurantee that future generations will look back at games that are being made now and declare them art. |
I'd wager it's more likely that we'll look back in 50 years at the games coming out now as we look back on old silent films. Important in the development of the medium but ultimately archaic.
| Quote: |
They can definitely be a masterful work, technically or creatively. Any game with ground breaking technology or style meets this criteria.
|
The problem is that's such a ridiculously broad definition it's almost meaningless. By that definition trolling is art because it's because it's designed to elicit emotional responses.
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jprockbelly
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:21 am Post subject: |
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| Benza wrote: | | The problem is that's such a ridiculously broad definition it's almost meaningless. By that definition trolling is art because it's because it's designed to elicit emotional responses. |
Sure why not. The written word has long been considered an artform. If you can write something profound and meaningful which is emotionally effecting and displays mastery and skilful use of the written language, I see no reason why it should not be art. Whether you intention is to troll or not.
For example, Oscar Wilde was a huge fan of the troll:
| Oscar Wilde when entering customs in New York wrote: | | I have nothing to declare except my genius. |
Edit:
The definition is not meaningless Benz, it is subjective. Everyone can interpret it in their own way. Therefore, if we are ever going to reach agreement on this issue we need to either accept a popular ruling (if the majority of people say itâs art then it is) or an expert ruling (video games experts should tell us what is and isnât art).
In real life we allow experts in music, film and literature to tell us what is and isnât art, so why should games be any different?
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Last edited by jprockbelly on Thu Oct 13, 2011 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total
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