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ZeroX03
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 Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:15 am Post subject: |
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Tidus' laugh scene in FFX.
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Gamesta
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:24 am Post subject: |
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Yeah that scene was weird.
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Ka-Pom
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:03 am Post subject: |
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| PixieGirl wrote: | I think Oblivion is one of those love-it-or-hate it games, and it seems that most people can only seem to enjoy either Morrowind or Oblivion and not both - I played Morrowind and personally thought it was a horrible game, I found it much too dull, ugly and overly complicated.. But there are people who will tell me its a hundred times better than Oblivion when actually Oblivion is one of my favourite games. lol, that's just something that amuses me  and its strange because they're both from the same series too.
Oblivion was definately dumbed down I think, that's for sure. However I think for some people, that dumbing down made the game much more accessible and easier to pick up and get into, which is why I loved it so much because I don't like it when games are too complicated.  I think a lot of games are becoming more accessible now, because as someone who is very new to gaming, when I play older games I find them really difficult to get into because they are tooo complicated. Especially PC games! |
I'm with you on Morrowind being a horrible game but Oblivion takes the prize for being the series low point in my opinion (Daggerfall all the way) And if you think I hate Oblivion, you don't even want to get me started on Fallout 3.
The dumbing down you are talking about is why I think games have gone downhill in the past decade. All looks, no substance. Like having an 18 year old hottie as a girlfriend, but realizing her mum offers a much more enjoyable experience....don't read into that too much.
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Aussie XP
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| Ka-Pom wrote: | | PixieGirl wrote: | I think Oblivion is one of those love-it-or-hate it games, and it seems that most people can only seem to enjoy either Morrowind or Oblivion and not both - I played Morrowind and personally thought it was a horrible game, I found it much too dull, ugly and overly complicated.. But there are people who will tell me its a hundred times better than Oblivion when actually Oblivion is one of my favourite games. lol, that's just something that amuses me and its strange because they're both from the same series too.
Oblivion was definately dumbed down I think, that's for sure. However I think for some people, that dumbing down made the game much more accessible and easier to pick up and get into, which is why I loved it so much because I don't like it when games are too complicated. I think a lot of games are becoming more accessible now, because as someone who is very new to gaming, when I play older games I find them really difficult to get into because they are tooo complicated. Especially PC games! |
I'm with you on Morrowind being a horrible game but Oblivion takes the prize for being the series low point in my opinion (Daggerfall all the way) And if you think I hate Oblivion, you don't even want to get me started on Fallout 3.
The dumbing down you are talking about is why I think games have gone downhill in the past decade. All looks, no substance. Like having an 18 year old hottie as a girlfriend, but realizing her mum offers a much more enjoyable experience....don't read into that too much. |
Its all conducive to the casualisation of the gaming market I think, if you look back at 10 years ago compared to now, most companies are putting a much larger focus on tapping into the casual market leading to simplification in many cases. Natal, Eye Toy, everything about the Wii are all good examples, theres still alot that caters for hardcore gamers, but they are starting to realize how much money is to be made from casuals.
Take a look at the Empire Earth series, 1 and 2 were great great RTS's, rthey had alot of depth to them, then you look at 3 and they completely went backwards, I was a massive fan of the series and I didnt even touch 3 for more than 10 minutes.
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IceboX
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:22 am Post subject: |
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Prince of Persia 2, Devil May Cry 2 (this!), NBA Live series from 2006 - 2009
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PixieGirl
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| Ka-Pom wrote: | | The dumbing down you are talking about is why I think games have gone downhill in the past decade. All looks, no substance. Like having an 18 year old hottie as a girlfriend, but realizing her mum offers a much more enjoyable experience....don't read into that too much. |
I dunno, personally I haven't enjoyed many older games I've played and I think games have advanced and gotten better. 
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Frozencry
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| PixieGirl wrote: | | Ka-Pom wrote: | | The dumbing down you are talking about is why I think games have gone downhill in the past decade. All looks, no substance. Like having an 18 year old hottie as a girlfriend, but realizing her mum offers a much more enjoyable experience....don't read into that too much. |
I dunno, personally I haven't enjoyed many older games I've played and I think games have advanced and gotten better. |
I believe I've talked about this with you before!
It's a catch 22 really. The older gamers who've gamed since the very young ages usually seek out more depth in their games because we're used to it really. I too think that the dumbing down of games over the past decade or so has overall been a decline in the quality of gaming. Though on the brighter side, it makes gaming far more accessible to everyone in general, making it less of a niche thing and more mainstream. This is subjective as to whether it's a good thing or not though.
There needs to be a balance somewhere there..*ponders*
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j.d.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:02 am Post subject: |
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the driving system in the transformers teh movie game
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Peveus
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| ZeroX03 wrote: | | Tidus' laugh scene in FFX. |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBHIgh3MEJU
That's the scene in Japanese... so at least we know that the weirdness was intentional.
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sharkfinblues
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:39 am Post subject: |
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Ninja Gaiden II's incendiary spider ninja overload and boss fight reduxes. That game, outside of the combat mechanics, soiled NG's good name.
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Furianshi
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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 wow, there sure is a lot of Oblivion hate on this forum.
Some of you guys remind me of my Dad when he gets together with a few mates and they complain about how things were better "in the old days". I've also been playing games for a long time (20+ yrs), but because I didn't play Daggerfall, I wasn't expecting a certain thing from Morrowind or Oblivion. I think perspective has a lot to do with it. I didn't enjoy Oblivion because I'm a noob or a casual gamer, I enjoyed it because I played it without pre-defined expectations. When you view it based solely on it's own merits, unless you are into more casual mainstream games (I know of a couple of people who never really gave the game a chance beyond the dungeon escape because the game seemed too stat-orientated, boring and, you know, "elves and rats... wtf? where's my copy of halo?") Oblivion really is one of the best games to be released this decade.
Besides, from what I've read, you can pretty much get Oblivion to behave like Daggerfall through the use of mods. Unfortunately, you can't get Daggerfall to look like Oblivion.
As for a general dumbing down of games and decline in quality... Excluding games released on Nintendo platforms, the only thing that really relates to that that I can see, is maybe how there was a lot more PC type RPGs where there were a billion stats for everything, which was typically a numerical representation for what couldn't be conveyed in more natural ways with how graphics and physics were...
[old man voice]... back in the day[/old man voice].
Anyway...
Major what were they thinking moments:
Having Raiden as the playable character for the majority of MGS2. Playing as a noobish whingy feminine male is sooo not why I bought the sequel to MGS.
My initial reaction to the cliff-hanger ending of Soul Reaver was definitely WTF WERE THEY THINKING???
Minor what were they thinking moments:
The Vault in Borderlands. What was I playing this for again? Well, the answer to that is probably the co-op play and addictive looting, but yeah...
Lack of shift animations in Forza 3's interior view.
There is more that I could think of, those are just the first that come to mind.
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ShortRaver
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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The Zelda games on the Philips CD-i... Oh my god.
And almost everything that the Angry Video Game Nerd has reviewed.
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Gamesta
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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+1 just for mentioning AVGN 
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Ka-Pom
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| nutella wrote: | | When you view it based solely on it's own merits, unless you are into more casual mainstream games (I know of a couple of people who never really gave the game a chance beyond the dungeon escape because the game seemed too stat-orientated, boring and, you know, "elves and rats... wtf? where's my copy of halo?") Oblivion really is one of the best games to be released this decade. |
You could say my past experience with the series effects my judgment, but the fact remains as an RPG, it was a shallow experience. Boring, tedious quests, small amount of equipment options, and despite what people say, the game had very little content. And there was that terrible world leveling system, which I do believe is the worst thing ever implemented into a game.
| nutella wrote: | | Besides, from what I've read, you can pretty much get Oblivion to behave like Daggerfall through the use of mods. Unfortunately, you can't get Daggerfall to look like Oblivion. |
There is no mod able to do that, and trust me, I have used many mods. And yes, there is no mod to make Daggerfall look like Oblivion, which I am happy about, if there was, Daggerfall would lose a great deal of its charm.
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Gamesta
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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Spider-Man 2 on PC (the movie one).They made the game brilliant on consoles then made a COMPLETELY different an crappy one on PC.
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Karai Pantsu
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Four words: Soldier of Fortune: Payback.
Seriously? Guys? What. The. Fuck?!
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Jarrod
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| nutella wrote: | | As for a general dumbing down of games and decline in quality... Excluding games released on Nintendo platforms, the only thing that really relates to that that I can see, is maybe how there was a lot more PC type RPGs where there were a billion stats for everything, which was typically a numerical representation for what couldn't be conveyed in more natural ways with how graphics and physics were... |
Games are becoming more streamlined and accessable because they make more money that way.
Once upon a time the gaming industry was driven by gamers, as in, people who played tons of games. You could get away with making a super deep 'hardcore' game most of the time as there was still a strong audiance, and publishers were happy to pick them up.
But now that gaming is a greater part of human culture tons and tons of people game, and the reality is not everybody is interested in difficult, complicated games. They want to get to the fun right from the start and not be forced to sit and play for far too long to achieve something mininal, or get confused by complicated game design.
Halo is casual. Modern Warfare 2 is casual. Mario is casual. These games might offer some difficulty at times and options that cater for the more 'hardcore' among us, but they're primary goal is to offer a very accessable and enjoyable game.
It doesn't make them bad, but it does make them different. Oblivion and Fallout 3 are fantastic games (the latter more so), but they're also dumbed down. For some this is a great thing as they have no interest in the highly complicated stat and world systems of WRPGs of old, but for others it just feels like a step backwards.
To be fair, the WRPG genre is largely dead with only one or two 'franchises' (if you could call them that) keeping it alive. Most of the developres, BioWare included, are going for a more streamlined experience.
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Ramblerun
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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People always take this scene way out of context. It is meant to be stupidly awkward, and was executed well(if people actually payed attention to the scene they would know it is fully intentional). I think it fits in well with the two characters development and their relationship. It annoys me when this scene is brought up in any dub arguments or jrpg bashing because most of those people never played the game and have only seen the clip on youtube. ARGH!!
On topic: What were they thinking when they created the battle system for Vandal Hearts 2. I loved the first one, but in this one the enemy moves while you do and you can end up attacking thin air and waste a whole move. This is a horrible idea for a strategy/tactical game.
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shinhawk
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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Not necessarily a scene from a game or even a mechanic, but every time I look at the cover of the NTSC version of Suikoden, I always wonder what kind of pain thinner Konami was inhaling when they decided to use this god awful art as the packaging cover.
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Jellyfish
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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Nintendo's Friend Codes.
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Furianshi
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Ka-Pom wrote: | | You could say my past experience with the series effects my judgment, but the fact remains as an RPG, it was a shallow experience. Boring, tedious quests, small amount of equipment options, and despite what people say, the game had very little content. And there was that terrible world leveling system, which I do believe is the worst thing ever implemented into a game. |
Shallow experience, boring, tedious quests, little in the way of equipment options and game content... Hardly sounds like a game that, after being reviewed over 150 times, would get itself an average score of 93%. As for the world leveling system, that is a valid complaint. If you are playing the PC version though, it's easily fixed with something like Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul.
| Ka-Pom wrote: | | nutella wrote: | | Besides, from what I've read, you can pretty much get Oblivion to behave like Daggerfall through the use of mods. Unfortunately, you can't get Daggerfall to look like Oblivion. |
There is no mod able to do that, and trust me, I have used many mods. |
With all the mods available for Oblivion, I find it difficult to believe it's impossible to find a combination that resembles the Daggerfall experience. Keeping in mind also that a lot of the mod authors are, like yourself, fans of the original Elder Scrolls games.
| Ka-Pom wrote: | | And yes, there is no mod to make Daggerfall look like Oblivion, which I am happy about, if there was, Daggerfall would lose a great deal of its charm. |
Yes. Ummm...
| EatChildren wrote: | But now that gaming is a greater part of human culture tons and tons of people game, and the reality is not everybody is interested in difficult, complicated games. They want to get to the fun right from the start and not be forced to sit and play for far too long to achieve something mininal, or get confused by complicated game design.
Halo is casual. Modern Warfare 2 is casual. |
This is a perfect example of the confused "gaming is being dumbed down" argument that I was talking about. Are you actually saying that games like Wolf3D/Doom/Duke Nukem involved gameplay more complicated than that found in Halo and Modern Warfare?
All I'm saying is yes, there are games like Wii-fit that cater to anybody. Outside of the games that are clearly aimed at (the growing crowd of) casual gamers, kids and grannys though, in general, I don't see a lot of dumbing down going on. It's just that things are changing.
And being more fun or spectacular from the get-go isn't really what I'd class as 'simplifying for a casual market'.
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Frozencry
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| nutella wrote: | This is a perfect example of the confused "gaming is being dumbed down" argument that I was talking about. Are you actually saying that games like Wolf3D/Doom/Duke Nukem involved gameplay more complicated than that found in Halo and Modern Warfare?
All I'm saying is yes, there are games like Wii-fit that cater to anybody. Outside of the games that are clearly aimed at (the growing crowd of) casual gamers, kids and grannys though, in general, I don't see a lot of dumbing down going on. It's just that things are changing.
And being more fun or spectacular from the get-go isn't really what I'd class as 'simplifying for a casual market'. |
To clarify on why modern FPS is 'dumbed down', the old school FPS titles were never so loving to the player, they were far more unforgiving and challenging. The problem with games like Halo and Modern Warfare is, although refined in its core mechanics, are hardly challenging, if ever, because they have so many checkpoint systems and so many scripted events that are easily passable if you figure out the pattern behind the script. This leads to a more unrewarding experience. Entertaining with presentation? Absolutely. But it's not as memorable.
But for me it's the multiplayer that feels dumbed down and less about skill than anything now. Games such as Quake 3, Unreal Tournament and other older FPS titles relied heavily on all your senses, including hearing, sight, reflex, timing and memorisation of a map. This all attributed to the skill level requirements and made the games feel far more rewarding than any modern FPS has ever given me. If you were able to pull off a middie or a flick shot in Quake, you damned near felt like a God. Now when I play Modern Warfare 2, I can easily get a few kills in succession, launch some killstreaks and dominate a match. Fun? Sure, but it's not satisfying at all. You don't really have to 'learn' anything on your own, it's all given to you on a platter, and for me being spoilt with so much in a game gets a little boring.
I don't doubt that skill is still required, but it's a whole step down from what it used to be.
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Furianshi
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Denny wrote: | | To clarify on why modern FPS is 'dumbed down', the old school FPS titles were never so loving to the player, they were far more unforgiving and challenging. The problem with games like Halo and Modern Warfare is, although refined in its core mechanics, are hardly challenging, if ever, because they have so many checkpoint systems and so many scripted events that are easily passable if you figure out the pattern behind the script. This leads to a more unrewarding experience. Entertaining with presentation? Absolutely. But it's not as memorable. |
I agree in principle with what you're saying there, but in practice I think, for me anyway, the checkpoint systems are a more balanced way to play games these days. I mean when it was all new and exciting I had the patience to replay levels and start games from scratch over and over, but these days I just wanna finish the damn thing and put the next one in the drive. I lost count of the times I started a new game in Sonic 2 with the intention of completing the game, the consequent hours lost playing, until one day I finally did it. Finishing it gave me an incredible sense of achievement, but would I do it again today? No way!
| Denny wrote: | But for me it's the multiplayer that feels dumbed down and less about skill than anything now. Games such as Quake 3, Unreal Tournament and other older FPS titles relied heavily on all your senses, including hearing, sight, reflex, timing and memorisation of a map. This all attributed to the skill level requirements and made the games feel far more rewarding than any modern FPS has ever given me. If you were able to pull off a middie or a flick shot in Quake, you damned near felt like a God. Now when I play Modern Warfare 2, I can easily get a few kills in succession, launch some killstreaks and dominate a match. Fun? Sure, but it's not satisfying at all. You don't really have to 'learn' anything on your own, it's all given to you on a platter, and for me being spoilt with so much in a game gets a little boring.
I don't doubt that skill is still required, but it's a whole step down from what it used to be. |
This doesn't really make much sense to me. You say it's dumbed down and less about skill, but then you go on to say how you don't like ingame skill-based acknowledgment rewards. Also, I don't see how you don't require all your senses (not counting smell... yet) to be successful in multiplayer these days. Maybe you're just really good? Or so attuned to your senses whilst playing, after years of playing, that you don't even realise that you are using them anymore.
I've had my fair share of enjoyment from UT and Q3A too, but for some reason I'm seeing things differently to you, in that, to me, multi appears to be more advanced and in-depth than what we had back then. Despite what I see as extra depth though, personally, multiplayer isn't as exciting to me anymore either. But that's not to say that I think depth and quality within multi is on a decline. I think it's just that it has all been done to death and I'm just a bit bored with it all. They add new features here and there, but essentially DM is still DM, CTF is still CTF and Domination is just Domination with a different name.
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Qbert
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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Temple of the Ocean King and the triforce hunt in both Zelda's.
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Frozencry
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| Posted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| nutella wrote: | This doesn't really make much sense to me. You say it's dumbed down and less about skill, but then you go on to say how you don't like ingame skill-based acknowledgment rewards. Also, I don't see how you don't require all your senses (not counting smell... yet) to be successful in multiplayer these days. Maybe you're just really good? Or so attuned to your senses whilst playing, after years of playing, that you don't even realise that you are using them anymore.
I've had my fair share of enjoyment from UT and Q3A too, but for some reason I'm seeing things differently to you, in that, to me, multi appears to be more advanced and in-depth than what we had back then. Despite what I see as extra depth though, personally, multiplayer isn't as exciting to me anymore either. But that's not to say that I think depth and quality within multi is on a decline. I think it's just that it has all been done to death and I'm just a bit bored with it all. They add new features here and there, but essentially DM is still DM, CTF is still CTF and Domination is just Domination with a different name. |
Killstreaks in CoD are rarely ever a showcase of a lot of skill particularly with so many perks and weapons available that give you the ability to get so many kills in little to no time whatsoever. They 'reward' you with stuff for getting a certain amount of kills, but the problem here is that it's not exactly hard to get rewards that will give you a massive edge. It's not rewarding when it's easy.
As for why modern FPS is dumbed down...I'll give you an average match for me back in my competitive UT2k4 matches. I had to actively track my opponent through footsteps and memorise pickup sounds for various weapons, time the shields and such so I know exactly when they'll respawn, control the map and learn to understand what my opponents weaknesses and strengths are, and then take into account trying to have an unpredictable movement pattern, solid aim and total focus..and uh yeah, it requires a lot of reflex and a lot of skill. This barely exists in modern FPS, because you start with your best weapons anyway. That and now you have deathstreaks too which give you an edge..killstreaks for easy kills, perks, attachments..the list goes on. It's all made to make things easier, but a whole lot less rewarding because you don't really have to give it your all to do that well. This is what I mean by dumbing down. You don't need to think as much, which IMO isn't a good thing.
Maybe it is just me, as I have been in the competitive scene and played a s**tload of FPS over the past decade, but yeah it's just not doing it for me anymore on a satisfaction level. Q3 and UT are still king in my eyes, because with simplicity comes a whole lot of depth that half the more casual players in the community don't even know about.
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