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G3ck0
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 Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Cerebral wrote: | | I think the point that is being made is that there isn't a large third party presence on the Wii, as opposed to the 360 - which is true. First party games don't come into the mix. Many third parties plan their releases around the PS3/360. You're not likely to see games like Oblivion, Call of Duty 4, Burnout, or GTA4 on the Wii. |
But you will see Call of Duty 5 on the Wii.
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Jedi.Jell
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Karai Pantsu wrote: | | Which is an entirely fair point, but one that people constantly mislay the blame for. While it's true that there is more than enough shovelware being made for the Wii, and no indication of that slowing, there are also real problems faced by devs (both those making crap, and those trying not to). Nintendo need to sharpen up their act and start offering much broader support for third party developers, in the way of better tools, support, and a quicker (and better quality) response to build submissions. Unless, of course, they just don't care about third party software... |
Do Nintendo care about anybody anymore? I mean anyone who actually plays video games other then Wii Sports and Guitar Hero...
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Eyce
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Sambo110 wrote: | | Cerebral wrote: | | I think the point that is being made is that there isn't a large third party presence on the Wii, as opposed to the 360 - which is true. First party games don't come into the mix. Many third parties plan their releases around the PS3/360. You're not likely to see games like Oblivion, Call of Duty 4, Burnout, or GTA4 on the Wii. |
But you will see Call of Duty 5 on the Wii. |
That's because Infinity Ward were smart enough to limit the platforms it was being released on to maintain the quality.
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Jellyfish
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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For those of you who seem to think there are no first party Xbox 360 games:
Kameo
Perfect Dark Zero
Viva Piñata
Crackdown
Forza Motorsport 2
Halo 3
Viva Piñata: Party Animals
Scene It? Lights, Camera, Action
All of the above titles were made by companies that Microsoft owned at the time of release and so are First Party. There are also many more games published by Microsoft, which would count under 1.5st Party.
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legend166
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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Haha, of course the 360 has sold more 3rd party software than the Wii. It's been out for a year longer, and until last month, had a larger userbase.
The only relevant comparison is the amount of 3rd party software sold over the same time period, in which the Wii wins.
Nice spin from Microsoft though.
also, lol @ list wars.
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DancesInUnderwear
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| legend166 wrote: | | The only relevant comparison is the amount of 3rd party software sold over the same time period, in which the Wii wins. |
Uh...
| the article wrote: | | [Microsoft has sold] 54,065,728 since the launch of the Wii. By contrast, the Wii has only shifted 33,394,311 third party games |
That being said, its not at all surprising, when all third parties seem to do with Wii games is give them last gen ports, unwanted spinoffs, and just general shovelware.
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legend166
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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I meant aligned launches. Sorry. This:
The Wii sold more in it's first 19 months than the 360 did in it's first 19 months.
And before people say "Well, duh, it sold more hardware!" That's exactly the point.
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Wedley
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| legend166 wrote: | | The Wii sold more in it's first 19 months than the 360 did in it's first 19 months. |
Hmm. That's surprising to me - I've also been of the opinion that Nintendo have completely short-changed their third party developers.
They seem to have a habit of keeping the really good stuff (e.g. online) to themselves until they've had a big first party launch use it... which seems like a dumb thing to hoard.
I do also just get the feeling that nobody gets the Wii or the DS as much as Nintendo do, and will just never be able to handle the hardware as well.
Or the space restrictions, come to think of it.
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legend166
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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And remember, this is just the US. Include Europe and Japan, and 3rd party Wii sales will be even further ahead.
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legend166
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| Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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Also, just to correct the story even further, Nintendo never claimed to have sold more 3rd party software than the 360.
So, uh, you should fix it.
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Crestfallen
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| legend166 wrote: | I meant aligned launches. Sorry. This:
The Wii sold more in it's first 19 months than the 360 did in it's first 19 months.
And before people say "Well, duh, it sold more hardware!" That's exactly the point. |
FACT:
whomever created that graph gets lots of sex.
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Duckula
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| nikack wrote: |
All of the above titles were made by companies that Microsoft owned at the time of release and so are First Party. |
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legend166
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| Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Crestfallen wrote: | | legend166 wrote: | I meant aligned launches. Sorry. This:
The Wii sold more in it's first 19 months than the 360 did in it's first 19 months.
And before people say "Well, duh, it sold more hardware!" That's exactly the point. |
FACT:
whomever created that graph gets lots of sex. |
Nintendo and/or NPD?
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Sin Ogaris
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:36 am Post subject: |
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So... what was the massive third party title released a year after the Wii's launch?
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Lord Haart
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| legend166 wrote: | | The Wii sold more in it's first 19 months than the 360 did in it's first 19 months. |
That means very little - aligned launch data is redudant as you inherently ignore major factors such as big releases, trends towards greater adoption of gaming, etc. One could easily argue that had the Wii been released at the same time as the 360, it could have seen a much slower adoption rate.
| Quote: | | And before people say "Well, duh, it sold more hardware!" That's exactly the point. |
Actually, it isn't. The point is whether 3rd party developers are selling titles to a significant percent of the audience. The greater number of hardware sales could easily be explained by the good 1st party titles. Again, statistics are easier to mould than playdough. When measuring something qualitative like the quality of 3rd party titles, use qualitative measures.
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legend166
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Lord Haart wrote: |
Actually, it isn't. The point is whether 3rd party developers are selling titles to a significant percent of the audience. The greater number of hardware sales could easily be explained by the good 1st party titles. Again, statistics are easier to mould than playdough. When measuring something qualitative like the quality of 3rd party titles, use qualitative measures. |
That is absolute, 100%, undeniable garbage.
I'm going to make a console. Called the Super legend166. I'm going to own the only system. I will get Capcom to make the sole game for the system. I will then buy that game. CAPCOM WILL HAVE 100% OF THE USERBASE! Great success!
I mean, GTA IV probably sold to a greater percentage of the PS3 userbase than the 360 userbase. But the 360 version sold more. Which do you think Rockstar is happier with?
Percentage and tie ratios mean nothing in the face of larger numbers. Especially since they inherently favour the lower selling systems.
And nice strawman at the end there. Where did I ever start talking about the quality of 3rd party games? I think the 360 wins in this category. But this topic has nothing to do with that. It's about 3rd party sales. Different things.
Last edited by legend166 on Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total
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DancesInUnderwear
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| Sin Ogaris wrote: | | So... what was the massive third party title released a year after the Wii's launch? |
Guitar Hero if I'm not mistaken.
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Spanca
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| legend166 wrote: | I mean, GTA IV probably sold to a greater percentage of the PS3 userbase than the 360 userbase. But the 360 version sold more. Which do you think Rockstar is happier with?
Percentage and tie ratios mean nothing in the face of larger numbers. Especially since they inherently favour the lower selling systems. |
Exactly, so why do you contort the figures and attempt to bend time to pretend the 360 doesn't have a 1 year head start. Like it or not, it's a competitive advantage the 360 has that is allowing it to sell more 3rd party titles. It makes no sense when you're discussing sales right here and now to shave a year off the 360's life to pander to the Wii's strengths. I just don't understand how, with a straight face, you can come to a comparison of sales and say "well let's invent a time manipulation device and take a year off the 360 to pretend that it didn't have a head start".
| Quote: | | But this topic has nothing to do with that. It's about 3rd party sales. Different things. |
Precisely, it's about sales, not about rates of sales or tie ratios or any other crap. It's about the numbers that have been sold and the 360 is killing the other two so far.
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legend166
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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All we're missing is the cowardly lion, Dorothy and the tin man and we'll have ourselves a Wizard of Oz movie. We've got more than enough straw men.
Pander to the Wii's strengths? What the hell are you on about? It's strength of selling an absolute crap load of software?
How can you not possibly see that comparing the total software sales of the 360 to the total software sales of the 360 is disingenuous? How about we compare the total PS2 sales to the 360? LOLOL 360 SUCKS PS2 WINS TAKE THAT MICROSOFT!
Do you even know what a launch aligned comparison is? Don't you do business degree? Holy crap. I'm not taking a year off the 360. It's taking the first 19 months of the 360, and comparing it to the first 19 months of the Wii. How is that not a relevant comparison.
I'm not even trying to downplay the 360 software sales. They're great. Here are the facts:
- The 360 has sold the most 3rd party software.
- In a launch aligned comparison, the Wii sold more 3rd party software than the 360.
- In terms of total software, the Wii has sold more at this point in it's lifecycle than any other console in history has at the same lifecycle point.
It doesn't matter anyhow, in a year the Wii will be ahead in every metric that matters.
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Spanca
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| legend166 wrote: | | I'm not taking a year off the 360. It's taking the first 19 months of the 360, and comparing it to the first 19 months of the Wii. How is that not a relevant comparison. |
My point, and others have made this already, is that you're not comparing the same period of time by doing an aligned comparison. If you compare like with like, as the article did, then the 360 still has sold considerably more 3rd party software than the Wii. The only reason you'd negate that direct comparison, of the last 19 months of software sales on both platforms, is if you want to discount the 360's competitive advantage of having established itself in the 12 months prior to that. That is disingenuous and distorts the facts.
The only way that would ever be a relevant comparison is if the end-points of those 19 months lead you to the same point in time. The 360 has a year head start, so obviously it won't. Therefore the comparison is useless for anything other than comparing rates of sales, which you conceded above was a useless consideration.
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Crestfallen
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| Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| legend166 wrote: | | Crestfallen wrote: |
FACT:
whomever created that graph gets lots of sex. |
Nintendo and/or NPD? |
The loser who spent the time digging up NPD numbers, totalling them and then putting it in graph form.
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DancesInUnderwear
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| Crestfallen wrote: | | legend166 wrote: | | Crestfallen wrote: |
FACT:
whomever created that graph gets lots of sex. |
Nintendo and/or NPD? |
The loser who spent the time digging up NPD numbers, totalling them and then putting it in graph form. |
Which is a dude that works at Nintendo if I'm not mistaken.
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Lord Haart
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| legend166 wrote: | | That is absolute, 100%, undeniable garbage. |
Sorry, I should have qualified my post with the phrase "The issue at hand". My understanding from the article is that MS is claiming that when you consider the size of the Wii audience, there is actually a much greater focus on first party games than third party. This is absolute, 100%, undeniable truth.
If anything, the larger install base makes you wonder even more why there aren't that many quality 3rd party games for the Wii out there. My guess is that Nintendo support might be lacking, whereas MS actually do help developers quite a lot if requested (though this may come at a price, such as an extra 35% towards MS in XBLA game sales).
The point of the article is that the Wii simply isn't fostering 3rd party support, and the number of quality third party games, especially when considering the install base, is surprisingly low.
| Quote: | | Where did I ever start talking about the quality of 3rd party games? I think the 360 wins in this category. But this topic has nothing to do with that. It's about 3rd party sales. Different things. |
I fail to see how game quality and game sales have no relation. Maybe you should start talking about it. This isn't about which console is better - it's about whether developers are getting the support they need, and, if so, if they're producing anything worthwhile with it. I still think one of the big things holding the Wii back from even larger use is the lack of 3rd party development. Sure, the 1st party games are done well, but new IP is the lifeblood of a console. If LittleBigPlanet and Mirror's Edge went to the Wii, I'm sure you'd see much higher adoption rates.
So it might not be about percentage - maybe the term I was looking for was "fulfilling it's potential".
edit: Neg for offensive tone. We aren't attacking the Wii - it's a great console, 2 of my friends own them and I want it to do even better. My point is simply that the article holds water, and 3rd party support could be improved. Debate civilly, and I'll remove it. But being offensive isn't going to win any arguments - you aren't going to win anyone over by calling my a straw man (hell, I don't even know if that's an insult or complement - my favourite Oz character was the straw guy  ).
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Benza
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:33 am Post subject: |
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Ya know I think the fact that Nintendo pull shit like this might have something to do with the bad third party support.
Honestly when they not only don't support there third party developers, but go to efforts to piss them off then it's probbably not a good thing.
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AllSchoolGamer
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| Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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well this is a bit of a captain obvious really of course 360 are gonna do better thenwii with 3rd party stuff...i will only buy 1st party games for the wii....i tried a few third party games when i first got my wii and took em back and traded em for the 360 counter-parts because the graphics were just plain $#!T. which leads ot the big problem of the wii not having too many good games. theres only 4 more i want to get for the wii where as i cant count the amount i want for the 360 because they are so numerous.
i sure hope nintendo get their act together for their next console...this gen of console for them is really really dissapointing. even my kids would rather play the 360.
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