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Cerebral
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freswood
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 Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| theory wrote: | | freswood wrote: | | At my school (at least in my classes) there is a really culture of academic achievement |
The English faculty is lacking though, huh? |
I really should proofread my posts 
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Charly
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Cerebral wrote: | For the record, Swinburne goes by the 65 -> 75 -> 85 system. Deakin, Monash and Melbourne all go by the 60 -> 70 -> 80 system, afaik. Slackers.  |
Melbourne has a crazy grading system.
Pass = 50 - 64
Then above that it kind of goes into Distinctions, but they are tiered.
H3 = 65 - 69
H2B = 70 - 74
H2A = 75 - 79
H1 = 80+
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Cerebral
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Charly
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:59 am Post subject: |
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Who said it was crazier? Certainly, not I.
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Cerebral
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Crestfallen
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Klawrence wrote: | | Crest i have a question... your doing a bach of science at melbs right? Are you a second year? Majoring in anything? Do you know if its possible to transfer from science to biomed / did you share similar classes with biomed students in first year. I'm thinking of transferring from science (assuming i get in) at the end of next year... just wondering if it was even possible at Melbourne and if i can pick some credits toward biomed. |
First things first, I have no idea about the Melbourne Model so if this has anything to do with it what I have written below probably isn't worth much.
Now, if you are enrolled in BSc and want to get into the BBio then you can do so at the end of the year through an internal transfer. I believe you'll get preference over people who are applying with external transfers (and VTAC) and it goes off you Uni marks, not your ENTER score.
The bad news is that the BBio structure is quite different to BSc. The BBio degree has a lot of compulsory core subjects (over 50% of the degree) which can only be enrolled in by BBio students.
These core subjects are similar to those offered in BSc but have a slight 'Biomed' twist to them. Also, those subjects are mainly first/second year...so if you enroll in BSc I don't think you'll be able to take over any credit to BBio. That's a major pain in the ass.
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Anyways, I think I told you this before, but I'll tell you again: The BSc is just fine. BBio might help get some placements straight out of Uni in health fields, but you're looking at some mundane job with utilises no real scientific knowledge and will only pay ~30k for the rest of your life. Both a BBio and BSc are near-useless unless you do post grad, I cannot emphasie that enough. Even a lecturer has said that you may as well apply at MacDonalds if you aren't planning to get some kind of post grad degree. And post grad work has no prejudice against BBio or BSc. You're post grad options will be as open (if not more) than a BBio student.
Another thing to note is that the third year subjects of the BBio are offered in the BSc, and 3rd year subjects are the most important. Chuck in the flexibility of the BSc and the decision becomes even easier.
BSc is a great degree when you let it lead you to Honours, Masters or a PHD. Get two majors in either Microbiology, Immunology, Genetics, Pathology, Anatomy, Physiology, Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, Cell Biology, or just plain old Biology and you'll be very happy.
NOTE: *Have a look at the handbook: www.unimelb.edu.au
*I am an experienced student at the uni and have done subjects from lots of faculties and departments and know a number of people (both same age and older) in different situations so I know what I'm talking about. However, more research never hurts, check up with some other sources and make sure you continue to ask at your open days, "WHAT DOES BBIO OFFER OVER BSC".
Feel free to ask me anything else. Cheers.
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Klawrence
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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Dude i cant thank you enough, this seriously is the hardest course to get info out of anyone especially the BSc as its so broad, everyone i talk to is like "do this, major in that take these electives then post grad in this then this and then potentially you'll be this which may or may not earn you enough money to live". I need to be told up and down what the hell is going on.
Ok well iv given it some thought, and there is a pretty good chance that i will do BSc at Melbourne majoring in Immunology and either Microbiology or Pathology (involves human path i think?) provided my ENTER is good enough. I do, of course have further questions, firstly, What sort of post grad courses are available for me if i potentially run this proposed course structure? Secondly, your adamant that BBio graduate students are offered no precedence over BSc graduates when applying for post grad courses and its purely subject to internal uni marks and results? Finally, is the span of post grad courses available to BBio grads the same as is available to BSc grads?
thanks for your help, its much appreciated.
EDIT:
Found this:BSc majoring in Microbiology, Infection & Immunology. sounds perfect.
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Crestfallen
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| Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry I missed your post mate.
Anyway I can answer all those questions relative to the current system, but after doing some slight research on your behalf I've found its going to change. Big time.
The Melbourne Model is a whole rework of their system which pretty much NEEDS you to do 5 years (a 3 year 'general' degree and a 2 year 'pseudo-postgrad' degree) just to get the same qualifications as what a 3/4 year degree does now.
Seriously, its very reminisent of USA now. They don't even have a Bachelor of Engineering anymore. You have to do BSc and then an extra 2 years in 'Master of Engineering'. That's big news since the BEng, which gave the same qualifications, at Melbourne Uni was about 110 years old.
The 2007 handbook is now irrelevant and the 2008 hasn't been released yet so I'm still confused.
I can advise on majors and such, but the course structure is looking very weird right now and I'm still trying to take it in.
Anything particular on your mind?
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Klawrence
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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Yea i wondered what was with the lack of reply, thought you may have looked at my post, looked into my options and then your brain exploded because of the complexity of the Melbourne Model. I known mine has.
I can tell you that I'm going to the open day tomorrow at the Parkville campus, apparently the subjects able to be undertaken under the 'Breadth' wing of the melbourne model will be announced then, so i may ask you about them, then again you probably have close to no idea on what they are about as they may be totally 'new' courses to the uni.
But yes, i will be asking what does the new generation BBio course offer over the new generation BSc course and vice versa.
Ok, now i have a few further questions dont worry if you cant answer them i can find out in other ways. Firstly,
You say the (New Gen) Bsc deg. requires me to do a 3 year 'general' degree and a two year 'pseudo-postgrad' degree. In my case, is the 'general' degree a Bsc?
Do you have any idea of the 'pseudo-postgrad' degree offerings for a Bsc graduate?
When you say 'pseudo-postgrad' does this mean that, supposed i pass, i will result at the end of those 5 years with two separate degree's or one single one?
Would these resultant degree's or degree be the equivalent of a straight 3-4 year BSc degree at Monash, leaving no benefit for an extra 1-2 year/s at Melbourne?
What post grad studies are typically undertaken by BSc students majoring in microbiology, infection / immunology? (prior to melbourne model)
Finally, do you see any benefits to the Melbourne Model?
Anything you can answer is much appreciated, thanks for the time you've invested in answering my questions.
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Crestfallen
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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yeah it is confusing, they've been slow releasing information. They haven't even put up the new Handbook.  I assume they're saving it all for tomorrow.
| Klawrence wrote: | | You say the (New Gen) Bsc deg. requires me to do a 3 year 'general' degree and a two year 'pseudo-postgrad' degree. In my case, is the 'general' degree a Bsc? |
I've looked into it some more and it seems SOME majors require another 2 years just to get recognised by the respective affiliation in Australia. For example, you have to do the Masters of Engineering if you want to be a qualified engineer, the 4 year BEng used to be sufficient. Same with nursing, law, dentistry, architecutre and a few others.
For your type of major though, I think the new general BSc is going to be very similar to the previous one. You pretty much have to progress to some kind of post grad study either way.
| Quote: | | Do you have any idea of the 'pseudo-postgrad' degree offerings for a Bsc graduate? |
Keep an eye out tomorrow. This is really ambigious right now. I think they've given the Honours year a chop. That is, when you get the new BSc, you immediately have only two postgrad options:
Master of Science: You can achieve this through either Research or Coursework. Research is more favourable though as it shows you have a practical mind and research capabilities as opposed to Coursework which just has you learning notes.
Professional Master of Science: This is new. Apparently it trains you further after your General degree and gives you workplace skills. I don't think this will be as respectable as a Master of Science...it sounds like it will lead you to be a highly trained technician and not so much a scientist.
After you choose one of those degrees, you have the big daddy open its arms, the PhD. Yep, this is where everything culminates, even with the old degree, your aim was a PhD. If you have a BSc and you want to make the most of it, then you have got to be prepared to get your PhD; ESPECIALLY in fields of Biology, Chemistry and Physics since the jobs they lead to usually involve you researching or developing totally new ideas.
PhDs are prestigious, worldwide-recognised achievements which make you a true scientist ready to contribute to society. The Melbourne Model doesn't change PhDs and will create a pathway for you to achieve one down the road.
| Quote: | | When you say 'pseudo-postgrad' does this mean that, supposed i pass, i will result at the end of those 5 years with two separate degree's or one single one? |
Yeah, as said before its not so pseudo for you. You will have a well rounded postgrad degree and an undergraduate. Engineers, Nurses, Architects, Urban Planners and others need the pseduo-degree which are named Graduate Professional Degrees. They are under the titles Masters, and they give them the qualifications they need to be registered at their respective board, ie Engineers Australia etc. I call them pseduo because they aren't advanced as other Master degrees. While these Profressional Master Degrees give qualifications, the older ones and ones offered at Monash are aimed at people who ALREADY have those qualifications.
| Quote: | | Would these resultant degree's or degree be the equivalent of a straight 3-4 year BSc degree at Monash, leaving no benefit for an extra 1-2 year/s at Melbourne? |
No, the 5 year Master+Bachelor at Melbourne will be a much larger achievement than a straight BSc at Monash. If you were an engineer though, the extra time spent on the 'Professional Degree' would be of no benefit.
| Quote: | | What post grad studies are typically undertaken by BSc students majoring in microbiology, infection / immunology? (prior to melbourne model) |
Yeah, the Master of Science isn't that different, although it seems they got rid of the Honours, which was lower on the food chain than a Masters anyway. In third year those fields will open up and you'll know where you will want to committ yourself. Microbiology in particular leads to a ship load of pathways.
| Quote: | | Finally, do you see any benefits to the Melbourne Model? |
For some areas, its crap. Nursing, Engineering and all those have had their duration extended just to incorporate the bull crap 'breadth' element. Other areas like bio, chem, maths and such remain quite similar since you always needed postgrad to get anywhere. The Model might help a little since it is being offered by such a well regarded University and they are trying to advance the learning process.
That being said, an undergradutate degree and PhD at Monash isn't going to put you at a disadvantage.
Definitely go for either Monash or Melbourne and try to get a feel for the different Uni's and listen to your instincts. They both offer very complete and well looked upon learning experiences. In medical/biology fields Melbourne has the edge in research, funding and the academic spotlight though.
| Quote: | | Anything you can answer is much appreciated, thanks for the time you've invested in answering my questions. |
No worries mate, I know its pretty daunting and there really isn't much useful help out there. Don't forget to study for your Year 12 studies too!
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Samboy
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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this may be a long shot, but was wondering if anyone is doing/has done the 'Bachelor of Multimedia (Interactive Entertainment)' course at griffith Uni in QLD, or 'bachelor of Games and Interactive Entertainment' at QUT, or the 'Bachelor of Multimedia Design' at UQ...
im looking at the QUT one, as iv always wanted to go to QUT, but the others dont look too bad. there seems to be less QLD'ers here in comparison to the other states, but its worth a shot.
signup for courses and such, you know... looking for some first hand experience.
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Klawrence
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks crestfallen, since the open day for the past week iv been compiling my thoughts on what i should do. I have given Veterinary science some interest, there are two modes of entry to the course at melbourne:
1. Get an ENTER of 99.1 and apply via VTAC. (not going to happen)
2. Enter the BSc course, undertake in my case, Adv. chem, Adv. Bio and physics + electives for first year. In this year average second-class honors range (H2A = 75%–79%). Gain entry to 1 of the 120 places.
Questions:
Do you know if the H2A average lies across individual subjects i.e. I must achieve at least 79% in bio 79% in chem 79% in physics 79% in electives or is it a 79% average over all subjects for the first year?
How difficult would it be for me / for anyone to achieve these sort of marks? (average second-class honors range (H2A = 75%–79%))*
*I average SAC / EXAM scores of A/A+ in bio/chem, I dont do physics. (this may be an indication of my ability, may not also.)*
Thanks for help once again. 
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Crestfallen
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:00 pm Post subject: |
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Vet science has dropped to 99.1? Damn. So you that's where you wanna go now... quite a bit different to what you were interested in before. But I guess a good thing about this Melbourne Model is that you decide between all those choices later when you have a better feel for what Uni is like.
| Wii Man wrote: | | Do you know if the H2A average lies across individual subjects i.e. I must achieve at least 79% in bio 79% in chem 79% in physics 79% in electives or is it a 79% average over all subjects for the first year? |
Its 79% average over all subjects. So getting 80, 80, 78, 78 will suffice.
| Quote: | | How difficult would it be for me / for anyone to achieve these sort of marks? (average second-class honors range (H2A = 75%–79%))* |
tbh, for first year its quite easy to get those marks if you enjoy the subjects and stay on top....dissecting the course structure and attacking it in pieces until every learning objective is under your belt. I remember getting 85 for Chem A (my VCE score for Chemistry was 37).
However, maintaining that score across the board takes a lot of work. I had two H1's in my first semester...but I also had 2 Pass's. (For the record I got ~94 ENTER and had averages of 76 and 79 in my first two semesters). The Advanced adds quite a workload on top too. Its definately an achievable goal, but its going to take a fair bit of work.
*Word of warning, you'll struggle with Physics especially if you didn't do it this year. Also, if you're remotely good at Maths seriously consider picking that up in your first year as well. Its easy to study for and even 1st year level subjects are a worthwhile skill to have in your degree.
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Adam
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| Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, the Melbourne Model is annoying me now, too. The latest Farrago just published a list of hundreds of Arts subjects which are getting the cut - including some really good Archaeology subjets I was very interesting in doing.
I'm a second year doing a BA/BSc, with a diploma in Creative Arts (Media Arts), so it looks like I'm going to see this Melbourne Model come into full fruition (I'll be here another four years, at least). I just want to be able to do all the subjects, or at least similar ones, that were being offered when I arrived at the uni. But with so many subjects and teachers getting the cut, I'm not sure that's going to happen. I should be able to finish my diploma before the School of Creative Arts is demolished, but I've also heard rumblings that the ERC (Education Resource Centre) is being closed in the very near future. What madness is this!? These are truly mad times we live in, etc.
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Klawrence
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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| crestfallen wrote: | Vet science has dropped to 99.1? Damn. So you that's where you wanna go now... quite a bit different to what you were interested in before. But I guess a good thing about this Melbourne Model is that you decide between all those choices later when you have a better feel for what Uni is like.
| Wii Man wrote: | | Do you know if the H2A average lies across individual subjects i.e. I must achieve at least 79% in bio 79% in chem 79% in physics 79% in electives or is it a 79% average over all subjects for the first year? |
Its 79% average over all subjects. So getting 80, 80, 78, 78 will suffice.
| Quote: | | How difficult would it be for me / for anyone to achieve these sort of marks? (average second-class honors range (H2A = 75%–79%))* |
tbh, for first year its quite easy to get those marks if you enjoy the subjects and stay on top....dissecting the course structure and attacking it in pieces until every learning objective is under your belt. I remember getting 85 for Chem A (my VCE score for Chemistry was 37).
However, maintaining that score across the board takes a lot of work. I had two H1's in my first semester...but I also had 2 Pass's. (For the record I got ~94 ENTER and had averages of 76 and 79 in my first two semesters). The Advanced adds quite a workload on top too. Its definately an achievable goal, but its going to take a fair bit of work.
*Word of warning, you'll struggle with Physics especially if you didn't do it this year. Also, if you're remotely good at Maths seriously consider picking that up in your first year as well. Its easy to study for and even 1st year level subjects are a worthwhile skill to have in your degree. |
Wii man? Who's Wii man..? Thanks for the info once again, I know Vet science ultimately is off on a tangent in comparison to what i was thinking of doing but its something iv been interested in from a career point of view and to get in requires me to pretty much do what i was planning on doing before....
Anyway, I did do year 11 physics and had to drop it for year 12 so i wont be a complete newb in comparisson to others (my competition) plus I dont think i do it for that long (1/4 of a year?) I'll pass on the offer for the math sorry, I honestly wouldn't wish another year of it on my worst enemy, let alone myself!
Since the pre-requisites that you need to get into Vet science from the BSc are only Physics, Chem and bio do you think i would only need to average a 75-79% across those subjects or would it be across all my subjects over the year?
You said you did Chem. how does adv. Chem compare to year 12 Chem in terms of learning content and difficulty?
What first year subjects did you do?
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mangaman
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Samboy wrote: | this may be a long shot, but was wondering if anyone is doing/has done the 'Bachelor of Multimedia (Interactive Entertainment)' course at griffith Uni in QLD, or 'bachelor of Games and Interactive Entertainment' at QUT, or the 'Bachelor of Multimedia Design' at UQ...
im looking at the QUT one, as iv always wanted to go to QUT, but the others dont look too bad. there seems to be less QLD'ers here in comparison to the other states, but its worth a shot.
signup for courses and such, you know... looking for some first hand experience. |
QUEENSLANDERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!
I glanced over that myself when looking at animation around the place. If you're interested in going to create games and stuff then definately go for it. I didn't think I wanted to be making games as living, so I passed up on it.
Matter of fact, I passed on animation altogether since none of the courses seemed too attractive, and the course itself (as is the job market) is very competitive.
Taking a slightly safer option at UQ/QUT with a double business management international/arts language japanese/chinese. Will branch off into animation if there's any attractive colleges overseas, or will teach myself and broaden my perspectives. (aiming for <OP.5 mind you )
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Samboy
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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^ hehe, thanx mate. yeah been looking mostly at the QUT one, since thats what i first wanted to do, then had a bit of a look at other uni's, but still QUT is top on the (short) list.
good stuff with double business management international/arts language japanese/chinese (shameless copy paste ). you finished it, or still going?
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mangaman
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| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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^ no problem. I think pretty much every university has it now, UQ I think is opening one this year? Griffith and QUT definitely does, QANTM is worth a look as well.
As for me and university, I'm still 16y/o in year 12 ^^". Those're my plans for next year, just hope my end of year results will suffice enough to give me a good enough OP. You live in Brisbane too?
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Samboy
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| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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^ ah fair nuff... no, i live about 2 hrs north... sunshine coast...
yeah looked at QANTM, but i think its just too expensive (even with HECS) to be a valid option, although i have heard it is quite good. UQ isnt really that well known for its IT courses, so i dont really want to dive in without any knowledge, which is why iv been leaning to QUT instead. and i dont know much about griffith but i heard it was good, so its a toss up between those 2. i gotta see a teacher at school about helpin me do my QTAC application though. so ill see what he says about it all aswell.
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Crestfallen
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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sorry for the late reply klaw man.
| Quote: | | Since the pre-requisites that you need to get into Vet science from the BSc are only Physics, Chem and bio do you think i would only need to average a 75-79% across those subjects or would it be across all my subjects over the year? |
Well each subject runs over 1 semester and you do 4 in a semester. So that's 8 subjects a year.
Alot of the time, the 2nd semester subjects just follow on from the 1st semester subjects. Which means in 1st Semester you'll probably have to do Physics A and Chemistry A and then in 2nd semester you'll do Physics B and Chemistry B.
Anyway your average will come from all subjects, not just the pre-requirements. So take up some easy subjects to help boost your average.
And note this well, Physics will kick your ass. Chem and Bio are only minor steps ahead from VCE but 1st year Uni Physics is extremely difficult.
| Quote: | | You said you did Chem. how does adv. Chem compare to year 12 Chem in terms of learning content and difficulty? |
I didn't do advanced chem, but I can say that normal Chem has a lot more content than VCE chem all crammed into 1 semester.
The advanced stream of any science isn't to be taken lightly either. They make things substantially harder from what I've heard.
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Klawrence
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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Are you saying i wont necessarily have to do advanced chem? or bio for that matter? I was under the impression the rule was; if you've done the subject in VCE, then you have to do the advanced version as a subject in your first year.
P.S is there such thing as a physics minor? (your scaring me out of it  )
and just out of interest have you got any idea how many hours a week the BSc takes up or is it purely dependent on your course structure?
Shit im confused.
EDIT:
These are the prerequisites for application, then entry to the Vet course via year 1 in the BSc (at varying universities)
The University of Melbourne
Course to be undertaken: BSc
Prerequisite subjects to be undertaken:
You will be provided with foundation science studies that comprise a quarter of a year in ––each of physics, biology and chemistry, plus an elective.
Under prerequisites for other universities i.e. Monash the brochure says:
Monash University
Course to be taken: BSc
Prerequisite equivalent subjects:
Biology 1011 and 1022––
Chemistry 1011 and 1022––
Physics 1011 and 1022 (or Physics 1031 and 1042 if no Year 12 Physics)
The line, Physics 1011 and 1022 (or Physics 1031 and 1042 if no Year 12 Physics) gives me hope, i think that Physics 1031 and 1042 could be a possibility of a watered down physics. I'm almost sure melbourne offers the same thing, i think i remember on open day someone talking about it. Do you know if such a thing exists at Melbourne?
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Crestfallen
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Are you saying i wont necessarily have to do advanced chem? or bio for that matter? I was under the impression the rule was; if you've done the subject in VCE, then you have to do the advanced version as a subject in your first year. |
Nah, the Advanced stream is just an option for smart people who want a challenge. You need a raw VCE score of +38 to enroll. They don't offer any extra credit or anything.... a huge waste of time and effort IMO.
| Quote: | | and just out of interest have you got any idea how many hours a week the BSc takes up or is it purely dependent on your course structure? |
1st year Physics, Chem and Bio are all 7 hours/week subjects due to the 3 hour labs they have. Expect your first and second semester to be 24+ hours which is very hefty.
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Monash University
Course to be taken: BSc
Prerequisite equivalent subjects:
Biology 1011 and 1022––
Chemistry 1011 and 1022––
Physics 1011 and 1022 (or Physics 1031 and 1042 if no Year 12 Physics)
The line, Physics 1011 and 1022 (or Physics 1031 and 1042 if no Year 12 Physics) gives me hope, i think that Physics 1031 and 1042 could be a possibility of a watered down physics. I'm almost sure melbourne offers the same thing, i think i remember on open day someone talking about it. Do you know if such a thing exists at Melbourne?
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I know that there used to be such a thing for every kind of science (chem, physics, maths). I have no idea what those quarter year subjects are though and if they relate to the intro subjects.
Man melbourne fuck*d themselves with their bulls***. The layout of Monash you just posted used to be how Melbourne was, nice and easy. I'm expecting monash to get A LOT more popular next year.
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Klawrence
Status: Offline
Joined: 21 May 2006
Posts: 851
$poons: 86.40
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| crestfallen wrote: | | Man melbourne f****d themselves with their bulls***. The layout of Monash you just posted used to be how Melbourne was, nice and easy. I'm expecting monash to get A LOT more popular next year. |
Yes same thus, the ENTER being lower at Melbourne(hehe wishful thinking). Though id rather be at Melbourne just for location tbh, Monash is just so faaaaaaaaaaaaaar away! if it wasn't for the distance it may have been my first preference. Speaking of, i have to make some. Uni preferences due in < three weeks!
You truly have helped confuse me on what i want to do with my life and for that thanks man! believe it or not, but no more questions!
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Adam
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Joined: 30 Aug 2006
Posts: 1965
$poons: 0.20
Location: Melbourne
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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^Actually, I did Advanced Chem A and B last year Klaw, and I can tell you it's not that bad... In fact, it's possibly easier to pass than regular Chemistry, because you get better tutors, smaller classes, etc. It's worth doing if you think you're up for the challenge.
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