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LeonJ
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 Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:48 pm Post subject: HD gaming and lag |
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No doubt this topic will become ever more popular in the future, but there is certainly a fair amount of banter going around with HD gaming and lag.
For those of you who don't know, the biggest problem with any HD set is feeding a signal into the set where it has to upscale or downscale to match the sets native resoultion.
I own two HD sets, Samsung DLP and Samsung LCD (both 720 native). And there is indeed a large amount of lag with feeding in a raw 480i siganl via composite. Both my sets have 'gaming' mode which cuts down the lag quite a lot, espically with component cables (I had to go out and buy component for all my consoles). It certainly made me frustated and angry as I spend $$$ on a shiny with TV without a warning of possbile lag problems, which can be traced back to stupidity on my behalf for not reseaching. However the 360 set at 720p (my sets native res) has no lag visable at all.
The problem is, with the 1080p sets rolling in, 360 owners are about to get 'lagged' as only supportng 720p/1080i, as your better off with a 720p native set as you will avoid lag with your PS3 and 360. Most the big wigs are all blowning their horn about 1080p which certainly is going to cause some problems. Same with the Wii only supporting 480p max, which potentially means all HDTV owners will have a 'slight' lag problem.
So I was just wondering if anybody has problems with lag or thoughts?
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Infested Jibbs
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Errr.........all news to me.
I have a hd lcd, 480i.p/720i.p/1080i........and never noticed any lag issues.
Mind you, iv'e only ever played the 64 and gc on it, which output 480i and 525i(?) respetively.......so....maybe they don't count.
Either way, never heard of this before.....
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camds
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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I don't have a gaming specific lag issue but whilst out watching the soccer on an Infocus projector the other night which was being fed a SD signal there was significant "slow down" while the processor was trying to deal with all the action on the screen. I was most visable when the shot panned out for a break away run.
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revival
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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ive got a lg lcd with built in hd tuner running at 1080i and have never had lag issues with my 360, ive got a gc and xb but havent played them since ive had this tv but like someone said before, all news to me.
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slapshakle
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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The only time I noticed it was when I first bought my hdtv, I played gamecube with just the AV cables, it was very slow to respond. No problem playing 360 though.
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Jim Dash
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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I havn't hooked my 360 up to a HD TV yet to test and see the results. I guess after all this time of playing it on a normal TV, I'm expecting a decent difference in HD Gaming.
Hope I'm not disappointed.
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chriharr
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| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe your TV has technical issues, My friend tried his XBOX 360 on my
Panasonic HD LCD Display out in my lounge, He plugged it in via Component Cable and set the Picture to 1080 i
NO Picture LAG MY FRIEND, if anything the Picture was too dam good, it almost burnt my eyes and made me buy a 360!
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Cerebral
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:03 am Post subject: |
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No noticable lag, and this is coming from a systemt hat constantly switches between SD and 720p display.
Closest I can think of is the v-sync tearing in PDZ, but thats the fault of the game.
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Jellyfish
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| chriharr wrote: | | Maybe your TV has technical issues |
I'm thinking this too, latency would only happen with processor slowdown. As for the 1080p sets, I gather most of them will have Cell (Multimedia decoder/encoder monster) Proccessors in them so they should be fine.
| chriharr wrote: | | My friend tried his XBOX 360 on my Panasonic HD LCD Display out in my lounge, He plugged it in via Component Cable and set the Picture to 1080i |
You really should have the 360 outputting in 720p unless you're playing something without much action. The difference between PGR3 in 720p verses 1080i is amazing.
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Sin Ogaris
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:38 am Post subject: |
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Interlaced is horrendous, they should never have even made 720i or 1080i as options. It's ugly, really ugly.
As for the lag issue, seems like it's not a problem for everyone, although I also realise that very few of you seemed to have actually grasped what he was saying. Yes XBox 360 is ace now, but when 1080p becomes (if it will even happen) the native resolution of the television it may cause latency issues with the 360 due to having to downscale (only for 720 resoliutions, for 1080i all it has to do is take away any possibility of fast movement looking decent and make any sort of striped pattern look ugly as sin which, I might add, is very ugly).
I'm not overly sure there's a problem as it would seem that component cables all but eliminate the discrepancies (sp?), but it will end up being a wait and see fiasco.
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Jellyfish
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:50 am Post subject: |
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^ I don't see 1080p becoming popular too soon... It's not even an actual standard yet, hell it's only got popular because of Sony's creativity of discribing the Playstation 3's abilities.
Oh, and it looks like almost all of Australia's HD broadcasts are in 1080i, though I think 9's AFL coverage is in 720p.
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LeonJ
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: |
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From my research it would seem most people using a HDTV and older consoles don't even reliase there is a slight lag problem, which is fine.
1080p will eventually become the standard native resolution for TVs down the track as the HD-DVD/Blue Ray players use this (as this is what the new DVD's video is encoded with). Thus we have a pickle which I mentioned above with people buying their HDTV and getting slight lag with their 360s/Wiis (not that many games will be running in 1080p on the PS3 either). The work-around for this is to use a VGA cable which skips a lot of the signal processing.
This was a big problem for me initally, as I got my HDTV 6 months before the 360 and as a green horn HDTV user the lag killed me with my PS2/Gamecbue/Xbox. But after research, using component cables/'gaming' preset mode cleared this up. There is a ever so slight lag present still however (average user probably wouldn't notice, but I'm a VF freak and you do notice).
More info on this check out these links -
More information - http://gear.ign.com/articles/712/712352p1.html
Or - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=558125
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macca
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| Posted: Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:24 am Post subject: |
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If this is true then the PS3 will have 'lag' issues as well apparantly. I recently read an inside interview with some developers who said it can't really handle pumping out 1080p games as claimed, but rather most will be 720p.
These 'developers' stated that whilst the PS3 could do 1080p, it could only do it for 'simple' games with minimal physics effects and the like on-screen at once. They sighted an example at the time saying that it was unlikely they'd have their FPS ever running in 1080p simply because of the overhead invovled (which the PS3 apparantly wouldn't have the guts to handle)
If I can find the link again I'll post it.
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Zarnoss
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| leonmc wrote: | | From my research it would seem most people using a HDTV and older consoles don't even realise there is a slight lag problem, which is fine. |
Realise is kind of claiming that there is lag but not realised by the viewer.
I can tell you that on my 46" Samsung HDTV DLP DNIE rear projection telly has had no lag at all in any game or console that has been thrown at it.
And I'm a real stickler when it comes to that sort of stuff and would notice it in an instant.
So far it's had a megadrive,snes,GC,Xbox,360,PC,ps2 all through various inputs through VGA,DVI,SCART,component and plain ol' AV and has not had one hint of lag.
Funny as the TV in that IGN article which seemed to be the main offender is the same as the one I'm using,maybe it is the American version of that set?
PS Soz Se7en for skipping ya new thread but i'll always give priority to the original thread.I'll always have a search to see if there is a prior thread just in case.*tip of the day*
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Chrono Blue
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:15 am Post subject: |
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^ this thread is specificaly about lag. The new one is HDTv and Gaming more generally.
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Zarnoss
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Chrono Blue wrote: | | ^ this thread is specificaly about lag. The new one is HDTv and Gaming more generally. |
Roger that.
My post was about lag or lack of it so i guess it is in the right place.
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LeonJ
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Well Xcs:sIVE I own the same TV in slightly large form, and I can tell you there is slight lag with composite cables connected using games at 480i. As I said above though, if your channel is label 'gaming', this clears it up 90%. I found that DNIE doesn't actually make a different either whether its on or off. That and some games really make a massive difference. If you play a precise timing game (ie sports) it becomes very apparent. But from what I have read, earlier models of the Sammys were very nasty which is a bit scary.
Fact of the matter is, any HD set that up/down scales a resolution to it's naive is have some sort of video delay from the source. Perhaps you are one of the luckly one and can't really pick up on it.
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Chris
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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There's no noticable lag on my Samsung DLP, if there was I'd be rubbish at Guitar Hero and I'd fall to pieces on SF3 
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LeonJ
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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But you got it hooked up with component cables, running in 480p or gaming mode right?
I remember reading a post over at Penny Arcade, and Gabe lag problems with Guitar Hero on his Sammy DLP until he adjusted his settings.
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Se7en
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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Deleted post upon reflection. Apologies.
Last edited by Se7en on Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:37 pm, edited 1 time in total
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Infested Jibbs
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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Look imo this whole lag thing has been blown completely out of proportion.We're prolly giving lil billy nightmares that his new hdtv will play future ps3 games like crap.It ain't the case.
I'm not saying your wrong leonmc, i'm saying it's not quite as 'life threatening' as you have made it out to be.As long as the set has >16ms response time, there will be no noticeable lag to the avg end user.
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LeonJ
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:39 am Post subject: |
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Yeah that is a valid point. But its good to be aware of it when purchasing something over $1000, espically when you plan to mostly use it for games.
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EvilHayama
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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The response time of the panel isn't the issue though, after all 16ms is 16 thousandths of a second, you won't see that as lag. The problem with some sets is the filters etc between the input and the panel. As jibbs says though, you can usually eliminate it by using the right inputs/settings.
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Lobster Johnson
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The response time of the panel isn't the issue though, after all 16ms is 16 thousandths of a second, you won't see that as lag. |
I think you probably would, and that'd be the only cause of any "lag".
It doesn't effect you most of the time, but will in fast-reflex games where you need to jump or shoot quickly - you'll notice slight lag.
It's pretty widely accepted that an 8ms response time is the best for gaming, as you probably won't notice anything less (some sets have 4ms, but they're still the costly ones).
I've got a Philips 32" HD LCD with 8ms response time and haven't had a single instance of lag in any game on any system, regardless of cables or resolution.
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EvilHayama
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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It's not the only cause, there is also "scaling lag" where the TV has to up/downconvert the signal to match the native resolution of the panel, which can cause lag. Some TVs also have other filtering chips in the path from cable to tv that can cause lag. HDTV forums talk about it quite a lot if you're in the market.
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