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01 Aug, 2007

Sony: Blu-ray vindicated!

PS3 News | Fully flexible PGR4 textures too big to fit on a DVD.
Chalk this one up as a reason for delighted giggling in the Sony camp. According to series of posts on the Bizarre Creations forums made by multiple staff members, Project Gotham Racing 4 will only feature a limited set of day / night options for each track, due largely to the difficulty of fitting the required pre-rendered textures onto a DVD.

Ben, a Bizarre Creations staffmember, kicked off the probably unintentional kerfuffle by stating, "You won't see different times of day per city because this involves recreating all the textures again (one for day and one for night). Whilst this wasn't a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD. So we've worked around the problem by providing different lighting models per city. For example, Macau is always in the daytime, but if you play it during a storm everything looks darker and more foreboding. If you play during a blizzard then things are slightly tinged blue and everything seems more frozen. Of course, playing this track in sunshine will make everything appear bright and yellowy."

Alan M, another staffmember, then clarified by saying, "In the past we've always had day and night and to do this we've had to create a duplicate set of textures for most of the buildings, obviously there is the space on the disc and the time it will take make all those night time textures."

He continued, "For some cities night time is important, as good as Vegas looks in the day everyone really wants to see it at night, so in PGR4 only night will be available, and if you thought Vegas and Tokyo looked good at night wait until you see what Shanghai looks like! So at it’s base there is only one time of day, add to that the different weather settings and you get more variation to each of the cities than just Day and Night would give you."

Those hoping for a second disc had their expectations dashed when Ben jumped in again, adding, "Having the game spread across two discs isn't an option for a number of reasons. Sorting out gameplay both in single and multiplayer where you always have to swap discs around would be difficult, and detrimental to the flow of the game. Also, having two discs puts the price of manufacturing up, and that's one we'd have to discuss with the publisher."

Based on these discussions, Sony was quick to get in on the act and point out the benefits of using a larger storage medium. Speaking to Gamesindustry.biz, Dave Karraker, Sony's spokesperson, pointed to the importance of selecting Blu-ray over standard DVD storage as a mechanism for avoiding these problems.

Karraker happily pointed out Sony's foresight, stating, "We took a lot of heat at launch for including Blu-Ray in PS3. Now it looks like that investment is being justified. Next generation games simply need more space on the disc to contain all that high definition content. Take a look at Lair, for example, already pushing 25GB of content, and that is a first-generation title. At 50GB storage capacity, Blu-Ray gives the PS3 plenty of headroom for developers to fully realize their visions well into the future."

Did Sony call it right? Is the lack of storage space a real issue? Did Bizarre Creations take the wrong route by avoiding purely dynamic lighting and using pre-rendered textures instead? Jump on the forums and let us know, as this is only going to become even more interesting as all three consoles move deeper into their lifecycle.

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70 Comments
4 years ago
Sony got it right with Blu-Ray and it will eventually show its face completely as more games are released in the next 1 to 2 years. And Lair is a damned good example, especially considering it uses Streaming Texture and Progressive Mesh tech which uses up gigabytes of data.
4 years ago
This is the first of many to come i think. But yes like you said Frozencry, 1 to 2 years time it will make a huge difference. By then Blu-Ray should be default media for movies too.
4 years ago
I knew Sony would be in the right with regards to this issue, but it is something that has certainly become important earlier than I had expected. The thing is- does this mean companies will sacrifice their games when they are multiplatform because the 360 is the more popular console? I'd hate to think we're going to be limited technically by something like this.
4 years ago
I'm not on anyones side here, but if you give developers more disc room, won't that make for sloppy coding and longer loading times?
4 years ago
haha, hoho, hehe....just as I thought.

Blu-Ray for movies will soon follow suit.

I love it!
4 years ago
LoL I saw this 'shop of a 360 version of MGS4, ships with 5 DVDs LOL icon_lol.gif
4 years ago
ADiscoMassacre wrote
I'm not on anyones side here, but if you give developers more disc room, won't that make for sloppy coding and longer loading times?
No, because developers know "We" hate loading times so they wont be sloppy. Sloppy = no money, easy.
4 years ago
could you imagine having to occasionally swap discs on 360's???
the 360 faulty rate would get even higher!
4 years ago
genxevo wrote
could you imagine having to occasionally swap discs on 360's???
the 360 faulty rate would get even higher!
Even worse would be a 2 disk game and one disk is scratched and then you would have to buy the whole game again...
4 years ago
Well thats good news for Sony, semi bad news for PGR4, but really did you expect anything less after Forza 2 which had NO WEATHER effects at all, let alone night time races.
4 years ago
icon_lol.gif @ genxevo.

Anyway, this is the sort of thing I've been expecting from day one. The 360 was always going to have trouble storing all that HD data, and now it's coming to the surface. Right on Ugh and Frozen, the future looks bright for Blu-Ray, and I like it. icon_smile.gif
4 years ago
Finally some ammo for the Sony fanboys! Get into em boys!

(Love that article title too).
4 years ago
always was obvious that this would happen, dont know how xbox could just not do anything about it. (please dont start saying they can cram it all on the dvd, they prolly could if they cut out plenty of stuff, but we dont want that) i think we will need to see a hd-dvd player for the xbox 360 to play some of these games that cant fit on dvd but how many people wanna buy the hd-dvd add-on?
4 years ago
Actually the more I think about it, it's very counter-productive for the PGR4 to complain about this icon_smile.gif
4 years ago
This is precise reason why it sucks so hard that GTA 4 ,and other such games that were exclusive to Sony, but now aren't, are now multi platform. It really has little (in my opinion anyway) to do with anything but the fact these games that are bought by MS and put onto the 360 in its current DVD only state are hugely crippled in what they could be.
4 years ago
DrTim wrote
This is precise reason why it sucks so hard that GTA 4 ,and other such games that were exclusive to Sony, but now aren't, are now multi platform. It really has little (in my opinion anyway) to do with anything but the fact these games that are bought by MS and put onto the 360 in its current DVD only state are hugely crippled in what they could be.
Ugh.. don't remind me. I'm now going to kept up at night thinking what GTAIV could have been...
4 years ago
LeonJ wrote
Actually the more I think about it, it's very counter-productive for the PGR4 to complain about this icon_smile.gif
What Im thinking, Im won't be suprised if these two guys get a talking to.
4 years ago
I just can't wait to see some games fully using the PS3 Blu-ray/cell tech to the fullest!

That Killzone lighting article Frozencry posted in the sony thread is sheer awesomeness of what the power of the PS3 can pull off and I guess it can only get better.

All in all I love the graphics in any game, that's what keeps me coming back when I think games are starting to wane.

I kind of feel for my 360 reading stuff like this but it will always have a special place next to my other gaming rigs.Especially when it comes to console specific exclusives and me being an avid gamer, I just need to end up owning them all. icon_sad.gif
4 years ago
Yeah I really think Microsoft should of went Blu-Ray with Sony, or even use their HD-DVD's for games too!, some say Microsoft use a high end compress technology too store all the content on standard DVD's, if that was true PGR4 with Dynamic textures should of fitted on there, I think its time for MS to rethink not using HD-DVD/Blu-Ray if they want the Xbox360 to exceed!.
4 years ago
The stupid thing Microsoft did was release a HD-DVD player add-on and not having it utilized for games as well...pathetic!!
4 years ago
Well, they couldn't.I doubt usb 2 or firewire or any external connection would have sufficed, it simply can't feed the info from the isc to the console to decode fast enough.
4 years ago
^ I bet they will announce something soon that says they will start usen HD DVD for games. They WILL be totally **** unless they do something like that.
4 years ago
DrTim wrote
^ I bet they will announce something soon that says they will start usen HD DVD for games. They WILL be totally f*** unless they do something like that.
Hehe its technical, but HD DVD has some lag in it, which means HD-DVD for games=no-no.

It sucks, but the Wii is lucky enough. Being far less graphical, perhaps this problem will only ever arise a few times.
4 years ago
SMASHED wrote
DrTim wrote
^ I bet they will announce something soon that says they will start usen HD DVD for games. They WILL be totally f*** unless they do something like that.
Hehe its technical, but HD DVD has some lag in it, which means HD-DVD for games=no-no.

It sucks, but the Wii is lucky enough. Being far less graphical, perhaps this problem will only ever arise a few times.
Talk technical... I cant see a latency issue from the specs - whats the problem?

Bluray VS HD-DVD aside for a sec; I'm trying to follow the whole "we don't have room" story - I mean are we suggesting that we read everything off the one piece of removable media and ignore the hard drive? I know its not fair comparing performance between the two as the hard drive is vastly, vastly superior in performance with an order of magnitude of throughput over that of the modest Bluray. But I cant help wonder why you would not cache say a few GB on the hard drive to save a disk swap. I mean as demand for storage grows are we really limited in that department? Hard drive wize we are up to what - 750GB & 1TB so how much do you think we will need in 3 years time?

Out of curiosity how does access time, latency, compare with say the 80GB Sandisk SSD media just released? I mean is Bluray about 10% of the performance do you think? These SSD drives are not cheap granted they cost a whole $300 - but they will be about $200 at a guess this time next year. Thats expensive isnt it? And we dont need memory speeds in the High Def world - just big capacity & slow is apparently enough.

On a different note - We all know how DVD scratches are polished out - anyone technical know the method of polishing the very thin hard coat layer on Bluray media by any chance? If not I should check with TDK and let you know if a solution is out yet.
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  Pre-order or buy:
    PALGN recommends: www.Play-Asia.com

Australian Release Date:
  11/10/2007 (Confirmed)
Standard Retail Price:
  $99.95 AU
Publisher:
  Microsoft
Genre:
  Racing
Year Made:
  2007

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