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24 Feb, 2006

PALGN speaks to the OFLC

PALGN Interview | On Marc Ecko, an R rating for games and more.
The Office of Film and Literature Classification has recently received significant negative feedback from the gaming community in response to banning Marc Ecko's Getting Up in Australia. It was a landmark decision, made the Classification Review Board, on the basis that the game contained “detailed instruction in matters of crime”.

We decided to put a few questions to Des Clark, the director of the OFLC, to see if we could give you a better picture of what this classification decision would mean for the future of gaming in Australia.


PALGN: Could you please give us a brief overview of the process involved when classifying a video game? What aspects of the game do you look at and how is the final classification decided on?

OFLC: First it is important to understand some legal and administrative background.

Under Australian law, no computer game can be sold or hired in Australia unless it has first been classified by the Classification Board. These classifications are G, PG, M and MA15+. These classifications mean “General” (very mild content), “Parental Guidance recommended” (mild content), “Recommended for Mature Audiences” (Moderate content) and “Not suitable for people under 15 – under 15s must be accompanied by a parent or adult guardian” (Strong content). Computer games that contain content stronger than MA15+ are refused classification and cannot be sold or hired in Australia.

The Australian system is a Government-regulated scheme. It is a collaborative scheme between the Federal Government and the eight (8) State and Territory Governments of Australia. Classification decisions are made at the Federal level by the Classification Board and enforcement is carried out by the State and Territory Governments.

The Classification Board is an independent statutory authority that makes its decisions under the National Classification Scheme by applying the provisions of the Classification (Publications, Films and Computer Games) Act 1995, the Guidelines for the Classification of Film and Computer Games and the National Classification Code.

Applicants pay a fee to have the computer game classified and must provide comprehensive and detailed synopsis and description of game play. In effect this means that the Board members classifying the game must be able to work their way through the entire game content before they make their decision. If the game is likely to contain content that would be classified M or MA15+, that content must be either provided as a recording or demonstrated to the Classification Board by the applicant. Particulars of this content and the means by which access to it can be gained must be provided to the Board if a separate recording is not.

Broadly, classifications are made on the basis of applying an “impact test” (very mild impact through to strong impact) to a set of “classifiable elements” (themes, violence, sex, language, drug use, nudity) considered at each classification. The impact test means that not only the impact of the individual classifiable elements has to be considered, but the cumulative impact of the overall production as well.

The Classification Board can be as many as 20 people under the legislation, and they are recruited to be “broadly representative of the Australian community”. Members of the Board are kept up to date with community standards by various types of consumer research undertaken periodically by the Office of Film and Literature Classification (OFLC), which provides administrative and policy support to the Classification Board.

Most computer games would be classified by a number of Board members. A Board report is written that outlines the reasons for the decision and represents both the majority and minority decisions. The majority decision is the classification decision. The applicant is provided with a classification certificate. If they ask for the Board report, it is provided to them.

There is a mechanism whereby certain aggrieved parties, ministers or the applicant can apply for a merits review, for a fee, to the Classification Review Board, which is another independent statutory authority – a part time Board convened only for reviews. In these cases the CRB makes a fresh decision.


PALGN: How long before a title is released does it need to be submitted for classification?

OFLC: All titles need to be classified before they can be released or advertised. As there is a standard turnaround time of 20 working days for a classification to be made, this would mean the computer game should be submitted for classification at least 20 working days before the advertising campaign is to begin. If a shorter time period is required, a priority service payment can be paid and the turnaround can be achieved in 5 working days.




PALGN: Does the visual style of a game affect its rating? For example are more realistic games likely to receive higher ratings than cartoon titles with the same themes?

OFLC: If a game looks more realistic it is probably likely that the impact of its elements will be higher than if it looks like a straight cartoon, in much the same way as a live action film has more impact than an animated film. So in that respect the visual style may affect the classifiable elements. But visual style itself is not a classifiable element.


PALGN: Do you know of any members of the classification board play who video games as a hobby?

OFLC: Yes, some members do.


PALGN: The 2005 GamePlay Australia study commissioned by the IEAA found that “the average Australian computer or video game player is 24 years old”. Does the OFLC consider these kinds of statistics when making its decisions?

OFLC: The OFLC, Classification Board and Classification Review Board are aware of various studies that point to the average age of gamers. Again, classification decisions are made using the tools of the Classification (Publications, Films and Computer Games) Act 1995, the National Classification Code and the Guidelines for the Classification of Films and Computer Games. Though such findings fall outside the ambit of these tools, I believe they are accommodated in the mix as the Classification Board is recruited to be “broadly representative of the Australian community”.

In my opinion, the fact that Board members are recruited to “be broadly representative of the Australian community”, and the fact that the mechanisms by which classification decisions are made are clearly laid out in legal instruments contribute very strongly to the success of our system. The periodic consumer research the OFLC has undertaken to assess the level to which the Classification Board is in step with community standards supports this success as well. I also believe the Review mechanism of the scheme provide further checks and balances that ensure the decisions remain “broadly representative of the Australian community”.


PALGN: Marc Ecko’s Getting Up: Contents Under Pressure was recently refused classification because it promotes the crime of graffiti. Is there a reason why previous graffiti games (such as Jet Set Radio Future) haven’t been given the same treatment?

OFLC: This decision was made on Review.

The Classification Review Board is a separate review body. It needs to be understood that both boards are also completely independent from one another and it is possible for them to reach different decisions on the same content.

Previous graffiti games have not been reviewed by the Review Board. The Classification Review Board will release their reasons for decision about Getting Up: Contents under pressure in due course, and I am unable to comment on the decisions of the Review Board.




PALGN: One of the main thrusts for Marc Ecko’s Getting Up being declassified was that it promoted crime. Can the OFLC (or the OFLC Reviews Board) point to research that proves a connection between playing a video game and committing an associated crime? If not, why is such a reason allowed to review an initial classification?

OFLC: It is important to understand that the game was Refused Classification by the Classification Review Board. “Refused Classification” is a classification. (Declassification means revocation, which is a different power under the Classification Act.)

As mentioned, the legislative classification tools are used by the Board to make their decisions.

It is also important to understand that Classification decisions are not always unanimous and the majority decision becomes the decision. This is what makes the system fair – it accommodates various viewpoints.

In the case of this review, the Classification Review Board was constituted by four people and the Convenor exercised her casting vote because there was, until that point, an evenly split decision.

As the Review Board is an independent, I am unable to comment on their decision-making process. The Classification review Board will release its reasons for decision in due course.


PALGN: Is the recent banning of Marc Ecko’s Getting Up likely to set a precedent for future game classifications? Can we expect to see driving games banned because they promote reckless driving or first person shooters banned because they promote murder?

OFLC: All classification decisions are considered on a case by case basis, following the processes I have explained earlier. As all games and films are different, it would be pre-emptive to make a comment either way.


PALGN: If a game goes before the reviews board and is declassified, what recourse does the public have in requesting a review of the review?

OFLC: The only recourse is when there has been an error of law, in which case it becomes reviewable at the Federal Court under the Administrative Decisions (Judicial Review) Act 1977.


PALGN: The 2005 GamePlay Australia study found that “88% of Australians, regardless of whether they play or have a game device say Australia should have an R(18+) classification for computer and video games.” Why are games and movies rated in differently? In particular why is there no R18+ rating for video games?

OFLC: Because the National Classification Scheme is a cooperative arrangement between the Commonwealth and the States and Territories, major policy decisions like those concerning an R 18+ classification for computer games are made jointly by the Ministers with censorship responsibilities in these 9 jurisdictions.

At the time that Ministers decided to limit the classification of computer games to MA15+ in 1996, they were concerned that, because of their ‘interactive’ nature, games might have greater impact, and therefore greater potential for harm, on young minds than films.

The last time Ministers considered this issue was at their November 2002 meeting at which time, on balance, not all Ministers were satisfied children would not access games classified as suitable only for adults.




PALGN: The first point in the National Classification Code reads “adults should be able to read, hear and see what they want”. Surely the banning of Marc Ecko’s Getting Up negates this point entirely. How can the OFLC justify refusing to classify any material (be it movies or games) when this is the first point in the code?

OFLC: That is one of the principles in the Code. Among the others is the principle that “minors should be protected from material likely to harm or disturb them”. The Classification (Publication, Films and Computer Games) Act 1995 also provides that “the standards of morality, decency and propriety generally accepted by reasonable adults” must be taken into account when classifying films and computer games. As well, the Code provides that material that incites a crime can be classified RC.

Again, the process of majority decision and the fact that the Boards are recruited to be “broadly representative of the Australian community” ensures that these principles are abided by.


PALGN: If there were an R18+ classification for video games, do you expect that Marc Ecko’s Getting Up would have been given the rating?

OFLC: The Convenor of the Classification Review Board has said that the decision was made on the basis that the game contained “detailed instruction in matters of crime”. That is one of the guidelines for finding a film or game Refused Classification. She has also said that it was not made on the basis that it exceeded the MA 15+ classification.


PALGN: In response to the banning, Marc Ecko had this to say to the Sydney Morning Herald; "It mostly has to do with a generation of disconnect and a lack of understanding of the medium of video games. There's too many grey hairs blocking their eyes." What would you say you say to counter this statement?

OFLC: I would point out again that the members of the Classification Board and the Classification review Board are specifically recruited to be “broadly representative of the Australian Community”. Not all decisions are unanimous. It is the majority decision that is carried in any classification decision. I believe this illustrates that the system is fair.


PALGN: What would be required for an R18+ classification to be introduced for video games?

OFLC: Again, that is a matter for State, Territory and Commonwealth Ministers.


PALGN: One of the aspects of the banning of Marc Ecko’s Getting Up was the instructional aspect of the game, how does an in game instruction (for example press X or the directional pad) equate to a real world instruction?

OFLC: Refer to the Convenor of the Classification Board’s comments in the media release.


PALGN would like to thank Des Clark for taking the time to answer our questions.
73 Comments
3 years ago
Wow a few of my questions made it there, good work guys!
3 years ago
Yeah, we used quite a few of your questions - thanks guys.

We avoided the questions about the labels because we didn't want to cloud the issue at hand.
3 years ago
It was nice that he took the time to give in depth answers to a lot of the questions, but now it looks like we'll have to chase down the classification review board for more answers icon_razz.gif
3 years ago
Cool interview, It's the first one I've seen by gamers with the classification board. Good work.

Sounds like we need one with the review board now, go go! icon_smile.gif
3 years ago
I think mine was used, unless someone said it before me icon_biggrin.gif. And I was quite serious when I said to ask if they actually did play video games. Anywho, thanks for the interview!
3 years ago
After reading those rather dry answers, I think the OFLC is the wrong organisation to be asking these questions. They don't have the power to consider an R18+ rating. And his answers regarding Marc Ecko's game were full of BS imo.
3 years ago
There's a Classification board, a Classification Review Board and the OFLC? Talk about too much red tape.
3 years ago
It looks largely like a copy and paste from a manual with "Please see the other departments for that" attatched.
3 years ago
Let's just say that my thoughts haven't changed in regards to the game, the banning or the lack of the rating...
3 years ago
Quote
PALGN: Do you know of any members of the classification board play who video games as a hobby?

OFLC: Yes, some members do.
icon_lol.gif
3 years ago
ZNMS wrote
There's a Classification board, a Classification Review Board and the OFLC? Talk about too much red tape.
Welcome to any Australian Government department. Many of my colleagues have interesting ATO stories, particularly concerning delegation - I'm sure I'll have some too in a year icon_smile.gif
3 years ago
I do somewhat agree with mark ecko's game beig denied on the basis of graffiti elements and a 'monkey see-monkey do' situation likely to follow.While yes you could say that about shooting games and gta and that sort of thing, much more violent, very realistic and potentially more dangerous, the only thing is that to get your hands on a gun in australia is very, very hard, and im not talking about your uncles old piggin' gun.

Graffiti though and spray paint is readily available and on some recent train trips of mine is only seeming to get worse and worse.I'm all for the artistic tagging, those guys have real skill, but they should funnel that skill into some sort of profession and make something of themselves.Useless scribble tags are an eyesore and unfortuanetly this game enocurages it.

Of course people are not robots and somewhere personal liability needs to be adressed.It's difficult, but i can certainly see where they're coming from.Just imagine the current affair shows jumping all over the subject if they DID let the game through.'OFLC allows video game that encourages graffiti, gang wars and undeground murders!!'.
3 years ago
^fack You

You think we should ban everyone from playing this game because spray paint is to easy to buy? Why not stricter control of spray paint? I am absoulutly positive that people who tag will play this game, but only because its something they already do. The nerve to insinuate that a large percentage of people over 15 (who the game is for) will just go out and spray paint is rediculious. I play games because i dont have the time nor the energy for a **** killing spree. Okay Bubs. Secondly if a game inspired someone to go out and kill , or graffiti tag i highly doubt lack of freely available guns would stop them, a knife is pretty dangerous (and thats just an obvious uncreative choice, which i included because obviously you think ideas such as grafitti and murder never occur to people unless they see or hear it in videogames).

The Current Affairs shows are all hype, their AD's for the show are inflamtory and the actual show is lame walk away from that because they know they could never prove that danger. If you ask me its a bigger concern that so many people watch those inflamtory shows.

Looking at your avitar, the number of posts you have, your banner im going to assume your a gamer. So answer me this, have you ever felt and urge to commit a crime when playing a game? NO? The what makes you so different and special from the general public? Are you and you alone born with the gift to not be persuaded by violent games.

How exactly is the graffiti in GTA and Tony Hawk any less promoting than in Marc Ecko? I admit that they dont have many games out there that really promote law and enforcement as much as promote crime but hey i would play a Rockstar game where i work for the police department tracking down the gangs, be damn cool if it was set same time as the other games, so you chase down your self from the previous games. Pollitcal control over this is ****, because you know every game in which someone dies would be banned if there was a high murder rate regardless of teh age group, gender or method as long as it is quick and easy for the government and effects people who dont have a voice for themselves.

Shame on you for calling yourself a gamer.
Shame on everyone like you.
Shame on me for caring, and being so disrepectfully but im sorry i dont think i want to stand by and see them ban by past time because it might someday some how encourage 1 person to commit a crime who would have to be mentally unstable to be persuaded by a game in the first place, and if he was doing what people suggest in stead like being out side or reading a book chances are he probably would have joined a gang or read a book that involves violence and still commited the violent act. Games dont make bad people, bad people make games bad.

Last and certainly not least, lets apply this happy go lucky logic to something else. Lets say driving. Driving is dangerous, how many people die in driving mishaps or intentionally(sad sad thing that happened recently)? Now ignoring driving games as a possible cause (and trust me i know how hard it is for you) lets go on the record and say most people would agree that 10 percent of the people on the roads dont deserve a drivers licence (a lot of people would put the number higher, and a few lower) but they dont make everyone get retested or retest everyone who viloates road laws and why? Because getting retested is to much of a hassle to a voter. This person doesnt care if by testing 10,000 drivers we save 100 lives over the next 2 years he cares that he had to miss a days work because he went 65 in a 60 zone at 4 am. They make the consequences tougher but how much blame can be placed on a person who never accuratly learnt to drive but was told they could. Making a bigger incentive not to do somethign doesnt make people better drivers it makes them more afraid but not better drivers.

Also i must have been play FPS for more that 14 years, i have never once ever felt the urge to strafe as a way to move around. I still walk the same as before whats that all about?

So by all means ignore me.

Just like the government is.

But one day, when im running down the street cocking my AK-74 (you thought i was going to use a 47 didnt you didnt you, you CS playing ass wipe) and i see you waving a pac mac hankerchief maybe i will stop and pause before i pull the trigger or may i wont.
3 years ago
Did anyone else bother reading this guys post above me after reading the first line? I know I didn't.

Anyway, nice interview, but like Xamerkapsy said, they didn't really answer the questions very well. And we all know what will happen if you get the chance to interview the review board; they'll tell you to see somebody else, then somebody else, then you'll end up back at with the OFLC. icon_razz.gif
3 years ago
That guy doesn't like giving answers does he? He almost sounds pissed off.
3 years ago
Jibbs wrote:

Quote
Of course people are not robots and somewhere personal liability needs to be adressed
Q-bert is on the money, and like you i took into account your number of posts, whereby i completely disregard anything you say cause, by your reasoning, your not a gamer and you don't know anything.

You speak out against any stifling of free speech and censorship-yet you completely molest my last post, call me an ass wipe for expressing my views and feel shame towards me?

It's people like YOU, gamers like YOU, with your handbag full of cusswords, your lack of a seconday school education and unwillingness to see situations from both angles that keeps gaming out of the mainstream and firmly buried on pg 37, bottom left hand corner, 80 words long in the daily paper, in other words, no one reads it cause no-one gives a sh!t cause the mainstream thinks were all like you.

Maybe if you first realised i wasn't for nor against the banning of the game, raised some counterpoints to what i said, and generally composed yourself like a normal man(no, peking man doesn't count) we could have had an assertive debate and maybe, JUST MAYBE, even learnt something.But of course, with your first line you typed, you pigeon-holed yourself as the run of the mill 'late teens/early twenties male gamer, full of teen angst and dislike for the 'man', who likes to vent on internet forums' demographic.

So heads up, after reading this and before you try to lock onto my ip address and attempt to bombard me with every homemade virus you can muster, try spitting out your dummy, wipe your OWN ass and grow up.
3 years ago
First before i continue this flame war

I totally agree with KickyFunkFresh that he came off as aggressive and non responsive.

Now on with the apparent show.


Intresting that you attack me by saying i like to vent on internet forums, but if you bother to check our respective post counts, we see who is truely addicted to internet forums. I didnt attack you for having a point of view, no i attacked you for having the WRONG point of view. I dont care that its your opnion, its not like i want your post removed for fear other gamers might feel the same way. I used post count in colloboration with everything else that was displayed about you to show how made my conclusion that you were a gamer, not because i find post counts indictive of a persons knowledge on a topic unlike you apperenlty.

Yeah i did call you an ass wipe, i probably had 3 or 4 derogatory lines in there, you know why? Mostly for comedic relief because my post was so long. Now obviously its very clear to me i am no comic.

You're not for the banning of Marc Ecko? Sure you tried to sound level headed by saying "somewhat understand" but yet from then on you only promote their point of view.

I do have one part of my post that i myself disagree with, and that was "shame on you for calling yourself a gamer". Mostly because i think it was stupid of me to imply that "I" had final call over who or who isnt a gamer which is just not true.

Now unlike my post which was mostly focused on topic, where was Marc Ecko anywhere in your post? Man did you try and come back strong. What you dont like me using the word 'Man' there, or the odd 'cuss word' (strangely i havent heard that used out side of America before) well congratulations grammar police, i didnt realise i was writing for the New Yorker, or The Age or for some published journal. I choose my colloquial style based on my audience.

Freespeech and censorship? How did i censor you? Stop your freespech, please explain how by me disagreeing with you (strongly) censors your point of view.

Still ignored my questions didnt you?

'Feel shame towards you?' What muddled english there seeing as i said 'Shame on you' which is a commonly used phrase maybe they just didnt teach that sort of thing at your school, they were too busy by the sounds of it teaching you the word "piggin'".

Now lets address the main points of your complaint that i didnt counter any of yours.

First a summary of what you said which is for the banning:
1 - Graffiti is a crime , it can understanbably cause 'monkey see-monkey do'
2 - GTA is fine because its hard to buy guns in Australia.
3 - Graffiti and spray paint can be bought almost anywhere and it seems from my personal experience to be getting worse.
4 - Scribbles are an eyesore
5 - Graffiti 'Artists' are good but need to do somethign else
6 - its of course up to the individual to take personal resposiblity but i can see why they see that as not enought (i supposed reference point on monkey see monkey do)
7 - Just as well they banned it, becuase current affair shows would have made games/gamers a joke

Now me against the banning and addressing you:
1 - Addressing you on point 3, i say that why not have stricter control over the sale of spray paint (a la like you acceptance of guns in games) I also mention that a lack of access to guns is unlikely to prevent a raving looney from causing damage there fore your argument on GTA is invalid.
2- Addressing you on point 7 , a current affiar shows are nothign more than a way to inflame people to argument. Also i suggest we shouldnt be afraid to be blasted on tv (via the aggressive tone)
3 - I ask you as a gamer, if you have ever felt the urge to commit a crime based on a game? (still no response)
4 - Addressing you on point 2, i openly argue with you on how GTA is less of a problem when it, and Tony Hawk provide rewards for 'Tagging'
5 - Adressing you on 3 again, i point out that pollitcal control over the banning of a game (in reference to people like you complaining about the increse of graffiti) is stupid and unjust. Also i point out that the government seems to be able to do what ever they like to us(gamers) because we dont have a lobby (a voice) to counter them.
6 - Addressing you no point 1 of 'Monkey See, Monkey Do'. I present the point of view that you would have to have a mental problem to be persuaded, or encouraged by a game to commit a violent act and suggest with or without violent videogames these people would still commit these violent acts. Violent people maybe attracted to violent games, but there not the only ones.
7 - Lets apply the same logic on how to stop graffiti on crime, to how to curb road deaths. I suggest at least 10 percent of people who have drivers licences shouldnt and they are the major cause of road deaths and accidents. However they are all not banned or retested because they are all voters, and it would cause them to much trouble. Yet gamers have no voice, we cant at the moment show that there is no link between playing GTA and commiting violence. I would now like to mention that they have tv shows like "HOT [source]" as childrens programming on 9 at 4pm yet that show has many reference's to graffiti, and the apparent criminal hip hop culture. Yet do they complain about that.
8 -I satirically point out that i personaly havent been affected in my day to day actions by games eg i dont strafe left and right when i walk just becuase i do it a lot in FPS.

So yes i was right when i said you would ignore my questions at the end (i only put a few above the rest are in my post). When i was talking about the government, i wasnt talking about the man perse i was talking about the political agenda which bans games based on social problems and not on there be anything wrong with the game. Or any proof that it will cause harm , or increase a certain criminal activity.

So i think i had enougth there for you to counter on, certainly enough holes, not like i did any research when i wrote this. Especially that bit about driving but NO you had to throw a tantrum break down and just attack me on every line , and only once talk about what i said. By all means through in cheaps shots at me like i did at you. Afterall its only fair but please at least address my questions and the issue.


So who is it really who doesnt want a debate?
I guess its hard to want to debate when you have no facts that you can call on, only emotion, maybe that explains your post.

So also from your last post being neither for nor against the issue yet having so readily for the banning of the game. How come you dont have a side you agree with?

One last questions, do you also feel that 'Cuss words' make some one bad? Or can harm someone else? I dont mean like yelling Fack You at a waiter in a resturant and being completly rude, i mean like walking down a street and saying "man its **** up they banned that game" on a mobile and a 11 year old overhears it. How can you be hurt by a word unless you understand it? and if you understand it how can you take it out of context and be offended?

Woops looks like i cant count, there was slightly more than 1 question. It's fine though treat as many of them as rethorical questions as you like, doesnt affect me one bit.
3 years ago
I've PMed modiika with a warning about personal attacks.

But also lay off the personal attacks on him, we don't want to be hypocrites.
3 years ago
What is the point of you PMing me and then coming on here to gloat about it. I may have this wrong, so feel free to correct me but isn't a PM a 'Personal Message'.

Not that i particularly care if you tell everyone how great you are for PMing me.

It's like the first time anyone has figured out how to use a PM
3 years ago
James wrote
Yeah, we used quite a few of your questions - thanks guys.

We avoided the questions about the labels because we didn't want to cloud the issue at hand.
i was just about to blow up about that. but that's a fair call. nice interview.
3 years ago
Mitchacho wrote
James wrote
Yeah, we used quite a few of your questions - thanks guys.

We avoided the questions about the labels because we didn't want to cloud the issue at hand.
i was just about to blow up about that. but that's a fair call. nice interview.
What did I do?

Anyway if you guys want to interview some mod makers/websiteadmins(*cough*BF2s.com) just ask I know of a few people I could get in touch with.
3 years ago
^i was going to blow up because the label questions were neglected, not because yours or someone elses were picked. well, it probably is that my questions were'nt picked. but mostly that i wanted to put it to them that printing them means that people are more likely to import. this lead to my other question regarding the penalties to those who import/deport games into australia that are banned here. doesn't matter.
3 years ago
KickyFunkFresh wrote
That guy doesn't like giving answers does he? He almost sounds pissed off.
icon_lol.gif That's what crossed my mind too. After all, he did repeat himself a few times when answering the questions.
3 years ago
David wrote
I've PMed modiika with a warning about personal attacks.

But also lay off the personal attacks on him, we don't want to be hypocrites.
Personal attacks are bad, although page long rants are boring no matter how informative they may (or may not) be, I wouldn't know as I didn't read it; can you be more concise?
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